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I know this is guild and raid management, but I feel like you guys are probably the best equipped to give me advice on this topic. I apologize in advance if this is outside the scope of your forum.
I started playing WoW again in December after skipping Cata, and joined a guild at the end of December that raids two days a week. The core group of raiders including myself is nine people who min/max to some extent, read boss strats, and generally are pretty good about learning mechanics. Unfortunately, virtually every raid night one or two of the dps aren't able to make it, and sometimes the tank's job calls him away randomly. Usually we have to fill in two or three spots with pugs or random people we convinced to join the guild the other day. And usually I end up wishing we just raided with seven or eight people. However, these raids are tuned for ten people, so needless to say, progression is lackluster.
I just think it's a waste of time to have two or three unknown quantities die to attenuation every time and make what seems to be a fairly straightforward fight a lot harder. I don't want to tread on toes, but I inquire about our recruitment every now and then and usually just get a "we're working on it." We have no posts in our realm forums and I never see anything in trade chat, though I'm not on too often. The guild touts itself as pretty casual, so people don't get benched if they die on attenuation every time. Our guild is very small, and there aren't a lot of pugs, so who would we replace them with anyway? Our guild wants to jump into ToT asap, which just seems like a disaster seeing as we've barely killed vizier twice. I know I should probably try stepping up to help recruitment, but I don't know how to approach that.
Then there is the idea of just looking for greener pastures in a new guild. Unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of raiding guilds recruiting on my server. Given my frustration, I would like to find a stable guild capable of clearing normals by the release of the next tier, but since it's the end of this tier, guilds are either pushing heroics or stuck on the first few bosses. If I were to leave my guild, should I even bother applying for guilds in heroics, considering I don't have the experience or gear? Will I just be wasting my time because all my apps get rejected?
A little addendum: I guess I should mention a little more of what I look for in a guild. "Casual" to me means 2-3 days a week for 8-12ish hours and then goofing off with the guild whenever I have time to play. I still want to progress though, so I read the stickies on the class forums and elitisjerks to help me play better, and I would like the rest of the guild to do at least that. The core group of my current guild fits the criteria but we can't seem to find two or three more people to fit the job. If I have to read or practice a little more on my own to meet the standards of a heroic guild that raids at "casual" times, I am willing to do so.
TL;DR Should I stay and try to help recruit a stable roster for my guild when I'm not even an officer, or should I try finding a more established guild?
The officers that I've talked to on the subject definitely would like a more stable roster. I guess I just don't see a lot of effort put into obtaining one. Most of the group has known each other for a while, while I'm a relative newcomer. So while they would like a bigger roster, they seem pretty content to just stick with the core group and patiently wait for more people to come in and jive with the group. In the meantime, raiding is just becoming frustrating, though.
Had the same thing in my guild. Then we had over zealous people recruiting, and unwittingly recruited to many dps and had to bench three (but we had no tank) and I do not think it went down well as it was never mention about benching or rotating rosters. Netherless the next day we had to pug a dps again.
I think you should ask the raid leader/guild leader if they are ok for you to recruit. YOu do not want to end up having to many people recruiting and not communicating. As for greener pastures - usually it is not greener at all but an illusion.
There are many different ways to recruit people, and most of them wouldn't be something the average raid team member would see. I'm sure that to many of my raiders it may have seemed like I didn't make any effort toward recruiting and many were surprised at how much time I spent on it when they found out.
The big question for me would be - do you like this guild? It seems from your post that you are happy with the mindset of the core members and if you could find a few more in the same vein you wouldn't be thinking about finding a new guild.
If so, then know that you don't have to be an officer to do the work it takes to run a successful raid team. If your guild leader is worth his salt he isn't going to make someone an officer and hope that they make themselves useful, he is looking for the people who step up and do the work so he knows who deserves to be an officer. Talk to the appropriate person (GL, RL, recruitment officer, etc.) in your guild and let them know that you are willing to do the work to help recruit. Ask if there is a specific area where you could help provide more coverage (recruiting on server, maintaining the forum recruitment post, searching through the forums for prospective recruits, ect.) and see if they are receptive.
As the popular quote goes, sometimes you have to be the change you wish to see.
I appreciate the responses. Some of what I've written is probably incoherent because I just wanted to vent frustration, but I think Cryptic sums up my attitude nicely in that I am happy with the core but would just like a few more like minded people to go along with them.
I might not be seeing all the ways my guild is trying to recruit (after all, I see a new face in the raid every week or so), and I want to help, but the fact is my time is limited. I never have sought officer positions because I want to use my limited time to do what I enjoy: play the game and progress with a friendly group of people. I understand that I might have a few responsibilities outside this realm and am willing to put up with them as long as I don't get too stressed out about it.
Thinking on your posts, I've decided to try to let my guild know that I would like them step up recruitment and that I'm willing to help to an extent. If I realize that doing so will probably take a prohibitive chunk of time from my schedule or I somehow become a de facto officer, then I might want to consider looking for a more established guild. Does this sound reasonable?
Raid recruitment in this age of 10-mans can be tricky. If you don't know what's going on behind the scenes, you can ask. Most small guilds (like ours) see their best success by bringing in friends of friends. When we went the route of random posts on the forums, or other public kinds of recruitment, we brought in a few really good folks, but a LOT more people who just didn't work out. But then the really good people started to bring along their really good friends, and now we're all set. If your officers are actually working on it, this may be the approach they're taking. Or maybe they're blowing you off. If it's important to you, you'll have to seek to open the lines of communication.
But that said, if you aren't happy with your guild's progression, and you don't have blood ties or something to these people, then I'd see nothing wrong with trying out different guilds. Don't worry too much about gear or achievements. Though, as you know, you can't be carried in a 10-man, so know your stuff. We just brought in a great tank whose old guild was stuck on the first boss in MSV. However, he came in knowing every fight in detail, had geared as best as he could with crafted and valor gear, and we brought him through MSV and most of HoF on his first night tanking without any issues, all because he was prepared.
Currently with add-ons like Oque and CRF.. cross-realm events are going to really take off this tuesday with the patch. I know what your guild is going through. Many guils are having that issue. Some of it is honestly.. many players haven't played wow for more then 2 years.. .. and it means you have players who don't have that frame of referrence to some of the hard raids or even the early hard heroics dungeons experienced in cata.. that I believe honestly has some of the most die-hard players better prepared. Heck I have met more then a quite a few Panda babies. .. players who have no experience in wow other then Mop.
And Lets face it.. LFr does not prepare people for tough mechanics. And the current heroic dungeons do not prepare people as well.
So what we have is a situation where folks go from Face roll dungeons to .. face roll lfr.. to challenging raids. I have more confidence recruiting looking at someone who has actually been playing 2 years straight. then someone who has missed all the tough raids.
Cause lets face it many classes and specs are vastly different then what many players are used to. And some folks are not adjusting well.
AS to your guild issues.. With 5.2 allowing for cross-realm raiding of 5.0 content .. if your guild is interested in progressing on your own time.. that will allow you guys to find some good people on servers where there is less raid action. And those folks are desperate to find a stable raid team top run with. I know this because I have talked to quite a few people over the last 3 weeks on various servers via cross realm raid finder and oq and many are planning to utilize those add-ons to catch up and get the experience they want.
As far as on your guild.. Ask the guild leader if it would be ok if you helped in recruitment... if you are seriously interested in having good people.. put the effort where one's mouth is.
Frame it right and if the guild leader is actually smart and wants the assistance you can help yourself and the guild. .. If they dont' respond at all or just make excuses.. I am sorry but then its time for you to look for a new home.
And with 5.2 cross realms you will be able to find compatible players to find that home you need or deserve.
I haven't read others' posts, just yours, so I hope I'm not repeating anyone else.
I can tell you from experience that if you are in the type of casual guild that has officers and GM who are not putting forth the effort themselves, even if you become the recruiting officer, they will not change their ways. 1. Your recruits will leave or 2. They will stay for now but as the top leadership is just plain lazy, they will look for better managed guilds. Helping like this will waste all of your time and give you absolutely nothing in the very end. I've been there; that's why I have the ability to tell you this with 100% confidence.
Think about it as if you work for a business. You could help the boss out by doing the paperwork for him, filling out the orders, interviewing hires, etc. But if the boss is smoking weed on the loading dock instead of running the show, the business is doomed to fail.
It sounds to me like you are the type of raider who wants to come for raids, play and be helpful when he can on his own time, and have some measure of success. You will not get that by picking up the slack for your lazy boss. You will just bust your balls and have nothing to show for it.
Edit: I know this sounds a bit harsh but it is the truth. I spent a year doing this with two different guilds. If I had sat there and watched the paint dry it would've been more productive in the end.
Edited by Hespler on 3/4/2013 6:51 AM PST
It's good to see different perspectives. Hespler, I appreciate you trying to tone it down, but I wouldn't be posting on a forum if I weren't prepared for brutal, blunt posts. As for what you and Subrosian seem to be saying, I definitely feel trapped in a guild that isn't going anywhere. From your experiences, you seem to think that this guild will never go anywhere, or at least the places I want to go. I realize the status quo is unhealthy at best, and the two most logical options (to me, at least) for fixing it are stay and help or "fly you fools." So if I follow your advice, how should I go about it?
As for Subrosian's questions: What am I afraid of? I'm afraid that if I leave the guild, despite doing my research, I'll find myself in a guild that seemed like a good fit only to land in the same situation a month or two from now. I'm afraid that in spending inordinate amounts of time looking for a new guild or in joining a guild with a raid leader who gets a little too serious about progression, WoW will go from an interesting hobby to a (painful) second job, the reason I quit WoW in WotLK. I guess the guild I'm in is the closest thing I've found so far that meshes with the idea of a "casual" raiding guild, and I'm still trying to figure out whether or not I want (if it's even possible) to try to help it meet my expectations on progression or to just leave.
It's not unreasonable for you to want to help rebuild your guild IF you set some parameters and determine your own game goals.
I would say that you need to think about these things...
1. What kind of raiding do you enjoy?
There are many different levels of "actual raiding" from casual normal modes to super hardcore heroic world first progression. If you want HM progression, move in that direction...your guild is obviously not going to accomplish that any time soon. If you want to raid with a group of friends who show up on time and ready to go but may only ever complete normal modes, move in that direction...your guild, with a more stable roster, may very well be able to accomplish that.
Don't let "casual raiders" talk you into raiding their way and don't let "hardcore raiders" talk you into doing it their way. Figure out YOUR WAY and find a guild that suits your goals and play style in game.
2. What are the reasons you want to "help" your current guild?
If you have a lot of time invested in the community that is your guild or with the friendships made therein it can be a hard decision to move on. If you really enjoy the people, the idea of leaving those "friendships" takes a bit of getting used to.
Remember, though, that if they are your "friends" they will want you to enjoy your time in-game. Even if the recruiting help doesn't pan our there are still options for you to play with the friends you've made in this guild. BTab (and RealID), CRZ, Cross Realm Raids for prior tier content and Alts all make it possible for you to continue having fun with your friends even if you make the decision to move on.
The most important thing is that YOU are enjoying the time you spend in-game.
Best of luck to you :)
I can identify with your situation. I've been there myself. I was in a casual raiding guild for a couple of years. For a while we had decent success. We were getting through content at our pace and having fun with it. We'd go as far as we could in a tier, get a few heroic kills maybe, then move on to the next. It was all very laid back but it worked because everyone threw in to help find people to run with, friends of friends and such, so that even though we only had maybe 7 or 8 core people who were there most of the time, we had plenty of people to fill in when they weren't around. The rest of the raiders who didn't get in on the main team would usually get in on an alt run on a different night, so everybody was pretty happy with it.
Then MoP rolls around and kind of killed the guild off for different reasons. The GM lost interest in the raiding scene and several of the officers developed a "meh" attitude about things and the effort to keep the ball rolling stopped and we started losing our raiders one by one until we went from a pretty decent guild for the casual raider who would clear normal and maybe a couple heroics w a couple different teams to one who was pugging for people in trade to fill one team and having wipefests and very sporadic progression.
I tried to hold it together, recruit people, find replacements, all of that, but in the end it didn't help, and when I got an offer to raid w another group with more of a committed attitude towards getting kills and progressing I had to take it because it felt like I was beating my head against the wall. It wasn't an easy decision, because I don't do a lot of guild hopping and try to stay loyal to the cause, but in the end that guild wasn't about what I wanted to do in the game any more so I had to move on.
Don't get me wrong, I still have toons over there and stay in touch with all the friends I made there, those who are there and those who left, but am content with it to just be a social guild for toons I'm leveling or not raiding with at this point.
TL;DR: Might be hard to leave and it's good you have a sense of loyalty and desire to work for something, but your efforts would probably best be spent somewhere with people of more of a like mind.
Edited to wish you good luck :)
Edited by Chrysant on 3/5/2013 9:38 AM PST
I'm afraid that if I leave the guild, despite doing my research, I'll find myself in a guild that seemed like a good fit only to land in the same situation a month or two from now. I'm afraid that in spending inordinate amounts of time looking for a new guild or in joining a guild with a raid leader who gets a little too serious about progression, WoW will go from an interesting hobby to a (painful) second job,
So you need to be sure you don't spend too much time looking for a new guild, and that you refuse if anyone demands too high of a time commitment. If you do that, then your worst outcome is that you end up in exactly the same situation as you're in now. Is that really such a bad risk, where the realistic worst-case scenario is exactly what you've got now? If the officers and GM aren't onboard with changing the guild culture and rules, then your current guild isn't going to go through any dramatic transformation, and you'll just sit around getting more annoyed.
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