The Arms of Pandaria: PVE Arms 5.4

100 Blood Elf Warrior
12850
So i've been trying out arms since patch and my DPS is alot lower than it was as fury. I know its most likely because i have much better 1handers than i do a 2hander but i can't help after reading this thread feeling very confused. So do i not want to use CS before MS if the debuff is not up? Also the whole slam vs overpower is very confusing as well as it feels like i never get to use slam as using 2 overpowers means my MS is back up and i can only slam if i don't have a dragon roar, free CS, or some other kind of GCD to use and i end up spending most of my rage on HS. Any insight would be appreciated >.>
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100 Pandaren Warrior
18085
03/07/2013 08:51 PMPosted by Aedilhild
Aedilhild (Despite being a treacherous Fury Warrior, your help was invaluable during the PTR)

Thanks! I trace my roots to Arms, but like Vulgrym, I run Fury for the funsies.


Nothing but love Aedihild <3

So i've been trying out arms since patch and my DPS is alot lower than it was as fury. I know its most likely because i have much better 1handers than i do a 2hander but i can't help after reading this thread feeling very confused. So do i not want to use CS before MS if the debuff is not up? Also the whole slam vs overpower is very confusing as well as it feels like i never get to use slam as using 2 overpowers means my MS is back up and i can only slam if i don't have a dragon roar, free CS, or some other kind of GCD to use and i end up spending most of my rage on HS. Any insight would be appreciated >.>


You're getting the gist of it correctly. You should have to burn off rage with Heroic Strike frequently, and slam should feel like it's seldomly pushed (Once you used Dragon Roar and Impending Victory).

Mortal Strike takes priority to everything even Colossus Smash.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
13325
Your stat wgt is wrong

its Hit (Cap) > Expertise (Cap) > Crit > Mastery > Haste
Haste is good and all with the buff, but Mastery increases CS procs leading into more uptime on its debuff and increases uptime on Enrage if CS crits.

:3 just to let you know
Edited by Gutsman on 3/8/2013 7:45 AM PST
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100 Human Warrior
15465
Your stat wgt is wrong

its Hit (Cap) > Expertise (Cap) > Crit > Mastery > Haste
Haste is good and all with the buff, but Mastery increases CS procs leading into more uptime on its debuff and increases uptime on Enrage if CS crits.

:3 just to let you know


You're wrong.
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
1. Are deep wounds ticks affected by haste? From what I understand, it's the damage spread out over 15sec, ticking every 3sec. Since it almost always is re-applied before it expires, I'm wondering if we can increase the number of ticks via haste? I'll go dig into my logs from last night to check, but I wanted to ask here too. If it is affected, what are the haste break points/plateaus?
Deep Wounds is not affected by haste. They no longer "roll" either.
2. From what I understand, OP is our second priority due to a) its low rage cost, b) its 1sec gcd, and c) it lowers the remaining cd on MS. However, it seems after MS-OP-OP, I'm at 1.4 sec remaining on MS cooldown, and so if I Slam I clip my next MS by .1 second. As a result, last night I felt I underused Slam, and perhaps overused HS as a rage dump. Is this just because of latency or am I missing something?
Latency.
03/06/2013 10:47 AMPosted by Torkar
3. My opening burst was lower than as Fury. That's fine in general, but I'm looking at ways to increase. With all cds stacked, including bloodlust, wouldn't MS>Slam spam be better within the opening CS windows? Or still OPs to fit in more of them within the CS?
Fury's burst with their proper Mastery-buffed Enrage up (which is guaranteed with Reck, as Fury) is insanely high.

Don't know the answer to the 2nd question, I was under the impression saving 3 TfBs for CS windows and doing MS->OP->OP->OP->MS would be better than MS->OP->OP->Slam. Anyone can correct me there though, seems about right for me: first is 752.5% WD for 10 rage cost overall, second is 648.75% WD for 30 rage cost - both with T14 2pc factored in but not factoring in Overpower's 60% increased crit chance (which favors set 1) and the possibility of MS proccing Enrage, which could make set 1 rage positive as well as set 1 having more chances to proc Enrage than set 2.

[e] Timer for set 1:
0.0 - CS
1.5 - MS (6s on CD)
3.0 - OP (6.0s - 1.5s [GCD] - 1.0s [OP] = 3.5s on CD)
4.0 - OP (3.5s - 1.0s [GCD] - 1.0s [OP] = 1.5s on CD)
5.0 - OP (1.5s - 1.0s [GCD] - 1.0s [OP] = 0.5s on CD)
5.5 - MS comes off cd
6.0 - MS (6s on CD)

Colossus Smash debuff lasts slightly longer than 6 seconds so if you have fairly low latency I'm thinking this could be pulled off on most CS combos.
Edited by Kangamooster on 3/8/2013 9:06 AM PST
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
It's Less than not if there is 1.5 seconds. If it's less you're not going to be able to fit in anohter move, and lose up time on CS with your auto attacks as well.
Btw, this part of your guide is just straight up wrong.

Something like this can happen quite regularly on a fight with small lost uptime, or a bit of latency - using Overpower because a 1s GCD makes it simpler as an example:

0.00 - CS (6s on CS at the start of GCD)
1.60 - Overpower (4.40s on CS)
2.65 - Overpower (3.35s on CS)
3.70 - Overpower (2.30s on CS)
4.75 - Overpower (1.25s on CS)
5.80 - There's .20s left on CS debuff, do you take it? Damn right you do because CS is still up.

Just to undermine my own point though, CS debuff lasts longer than 6s to account for latency, actually. In fact, Landsoul made a video back in T13 (or was it 14?) explaining how to fit FOUR Executes into a CS combo, because the debuff seriously lasts longer than 6s. Don't think it is possible any more, but yeah.

It's quite easy to look up on WoL:
[22:18:05.953] Frozen Head afflicted by Colossus Smash from Samayael
[22:18:12.448] Samayael's Colossus Smash fades from Frozen Head

[22:18:26.072] Frozen Head afflicted by Colossus Smash from Samayael
[22:18:32.564] Samayael's Colossus Smash fades from Frozen Head
That's 6.495s for the first one, and 6.492s for the second (slight variation most likely due to minor log errors).

Anyways, point is, if there's 1.5s left on CS or 0.5s left on CS when your GCD is available, you need to act as if CS is on the target. It literally makes zero difference.
Edited by Kangamooster on 3/8/2013 9:22 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Warrior
13295
Just a quick question for the filler in your rotation. why dragon roar? it would be a waste of a gcd using it during CS wouldn't it? it already ignores armor, so wouldn't it be better to use before or after the CS buff?
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
0
Your stat wgt is wrong

its Hit (Cap) > Expertise (Cap) > Crit > Mastery > Haste
Haste is good and all with the buff, but Mastery increases CS procs leading into more uptime on its debuff and increases uptime on Enrage if CS crits.

:3 just to let you know


You're wrong.

Could you explain why? Through simc I found my scale factors:
    Crit: 1.52
    Mastery: 1.11
    Haste: 1.05
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90 Pandaren Warrior
0
Strength is no longer a stat priority already uh? It is not important as all the other stats stated??
Edited by Lovesyoncee on 3/9/2013 12:57 AM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
8630
so what would be a good opener for arms in 5.2?
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Bump for sticky!
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90 Orc Warrior
6435
Could you explain why? Through simc I found my scale factors:
Crit: 1.52
Mastery: 1.11
Haste: 1.05


Haste's value grows with the legendary meta gem, the T15 2pc, and the RPPM trinkets by my understanding. It ends up better.

@Kangamooster, hey sexy. real ID me again. Get your peeps to contact my peeps.
Edited by Horrorface on 3/9/2013 1:29 PM PST
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100 Pandaren Warrior
18085
Your stat wgt is wrong

its Hit (Cap) > Expertise (Cap) > Crit > Mastery > Haste
Haste is good and all with the buff, but Mastery increases CS procs leading into more uptime on its debuff and increases uptime on Enrage if CS crits.

:3 just to let you know


Haste indirectly also increases Mastery (More white hits, more Mastery procs) However it seriously takes off once you've obtained the two set bonus for T15, as well as the legendary meta gem. Than it becomes almost neck and neck with Critical Strike.


Could you explain why? Through simc I found my scale factors:
    Crit: 1.52
    Mastery: 1.11
    Haste: 1.05


I have to ask to start are you using the most up to date SimC?

Also stat weights change depending on your gear. As mentioned earlier obtaining things like the legendary meta gem or reaching a certain critical strike point, affects your stat weights in different ways. At may very well be at the moment that Mastery is better than haste for you.

A great example of this is earlier when Arms has item level 463 gear, it's actually better to gem for Strength than it is for Critical Strike.

You could also try reforging your Mastery Reforges to Haste ones (Or removing them if you reforged from haste) and see how your stat weights look than. Haste could become better.
Edited by Curoar on 3/9/2013 2:34 PM PST
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100 Human Warrior
18340
Reported for sticky. Nice work.

I'm a little annoyed that all of the refinement we saw during 5.2 PTR didn't come during beta, but at least things are looking better now.

I may give this a shot again this week. I'll always have a soft spot for Arms.
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100 Pandaren Warrior
18085
Reported for sticky. Nice work.

I'm a little annoyed that all of the refinement we saw during 5.2 PTR didn't come during beta, but at least things are looking better now.

I may give this a shot again this week. I'll always have a soft spot for Arms.


Thanks Vulgrym! Hope patch has been kind to you so far!
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90 Human Warrior
8510
Recklessness - Increases your Critical Strike chance by 20% for 12 seconds). 3 Minute Cooldown.


Just a minor error here, Recklessness increases critical strike chance by 30% not 20%.

Everything else is great! Very nice guide, be reviewing this quite a bit since i'm making the transition from protection to arms. :)
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90 Night Elf Warrior
12470
Strength is no longer a stat priority already uh? It is not important as all the other stats stated??


Strength is still, point for point, our best stat. However, with that in mind (at current gear levels), for every 1 STR, Crit is worth ~0.55+ in relation. Therefore, a yellow crit gem (+320 Crit) would have a higher stat weight than a red STR gem (+160 STR).

160 x 1 = 160
320 x 0.55 = 176

What Crit does for you in laymens terms: The higher your crit % is, the higher your Enrage Uptime is. More Enrages = 10% more damage and more rage gain.

Now, as far as Haste is concerned (like others have already mentioned) - Haste WILL have a higher value than Crit eventually. There is a graph that someone plotted on Elitist Jerks which shows WHEN Crit starts to decline in value and Haste overtakes it - I'll have to look for it again for others to see. But it makes sense, due to what most have already covered. Namely - our new legendary meta gem, and ALSO the fact that a lot of the raid drop trinkets have no ICD (therefore making haste having a HUGE impact in those trinkets' RPPM).
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100 Pandaren Warrior
18085
Hi Curoar. A few questions for you:

1. Where is a good place to fit Berserker Rage into our rotation?


The best time is when you have colossus smash up, and also with other Cooldowns when possible. However it has an extremely short cooldown, so it's very easy to forget. If you're often forgetful like me, I simply macro it to Mortal Strike. It's not the best use of the cooldown, but you certainly won't lose up time on it.

The only time I wouldn't use it is when there's a mechanic that has fear involved, that's unavoidable. Like Auriyaya in Ulduar.

03/10/2013 05:15 AMPosted by Xerrus
2. I have two piece tier 14 with an ilevel 496 (chest and hands) and was wondering if that would be better DPS if I wore that than what I have currently equipped?


Absolutely. The bonus damage to Mortal Strike, was a big DPS boost in 5.1, and its' only bigger now since we cane reduce the cooldown with Overpower. Get that set bonus!

03/10/2013 05:15 AMPosted by Xerrus
3. Is the trinket http://www.wowhead.com/item=94508 better for us than Trinket of Xuen?


So far from what I've seen that trinket results in around 1650 Static Strength. Relic of Xuen results in about 1865. Even if you were to reforge Expertise off to crit, I don't believe it would match Relic of Xuen point for point, especially if you've upgraded it.

03/10/2013 05:20 AMPosted by Unrelentful
Recklessness - Increases your Critical Strike chance by 20% for 12 seconds). 3 Minute Cooldown.


Just a minor error here, Recklessness increases critical strike chance by 30% not 20%.

Everything else is great! Very nice guide, be reviewing this quite a bit since i'm making the transition from protection to arms. :)


Thanks for the catch.
Edited by Curoar on 3/10/2013 10:00 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
9675
Nice guide Curoar! Thank god someone is keeping Arms going. Good luck on your sticky. In the mean time since I have acquired 7 days of free WoW time I will put a link of your guide at the top my old one since it's already stickied.
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