So... why does GoSac exist?

90 Gnome Warlock
13490
Been reading twitter lately, and I'm noticing Ghostcrawler is contradicting multiple points about the new talent system.

The new talent system was introduced so players had choice that would not impact anything too much, but allow people to have custom characters.

Yet according to Ghostcrawler, Grimoire of Sacrifice shouldn't be a DPS bonus, it shouldn't even be equal to a pet. It should be a DPS LOSS to grab Sacrifice.

Am I the only one seeing a design flaw here? They bait people to play Warlock again with this talent, then the next patch, make it useless. People can say we're jumping the gun, but we're not. The nerfs have pushed Grimoire of Sacrifice WELL BELOW Supremecy.

So, why even have Sacrifice in this game anymore? The entire design behind talents is for us to have a choice that won't negatively impact our character if we choose the one we like.

But by having a talent by design that is a loss to DPS to grab, that undermines the entire purpose of the new talent system, does it not?

Honestly, I'm fed up with this. It's ridiculous. Warlocks were once one of the least represented classes. Now you actually see warlocks around town, in groups, etc. Grimoire of Sacrifice, whether Blizzard likes it or not, is one of the only reasons a large amount of warlocks play this class. I for one question if I will continue to play this toon if Sacrifice is as big of a DPS loss on the PTR when the patch hits live. I should have a choice. Not "Grab Supremacy or you're going to have worse DPS than if you didn't pick a talent at all." I have NEVER liked pet AI. EVER. But I still played a lock in vanilla and BC. I played it for like a month in wrath, and didn't touch it in cata. But mists made me have fun again with sacrifice. You can tell me I still can, but no, I can't. When I KNOW there's 5-10K+ DPS at stake because I don't want to deal with a HORRIBLY PROGRAMMED AI, I don't have a choice.

And honestly, prior to mists, I would never have thought sacrificing their pet was something I would do as a warlock. But with the revamp of the warlock specs, I can honestly say I do see why affliction and destruction warlocks would. Affliction sucks the life out of things to restore their own life. Why would they not start with their pet? Destruction warlocks destroy things, set things on fire, and apparently have a thirst for power. Again, why would they not start with their own minion in order to bolster their own power?
Edited by Bitsi on 3/2/2013 3:42 AM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
13800
Because there was once a person who championed the cause of Warlocks. It was because of him that Warlocks were completely remade in MoP.

His name was Xelnath, and he was fired for releasing info on Locks before it was officially supposed to be announced (the first GoSac nerf which gave Chaos Bolt a DoT)

I don't tink any of the other Devs actually play a Warlock.
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90 Pandaren Mage
12005
03/02/2013 03:41 AMPosted by Methalos
I don't tink any of the other Devs actually play a Warlock.


I honestly dont believe any dev actually plays... have an account yeh sure.. probably had someone grant it 90 levels & the best gear more then likly

But ever since Ghostcrawler was hired the game has slowly gone downhill
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100 Orc Warlock
11960
I probably sound like a tool, but if if the only thing keeping someone on their warlock is the fact that they DON'T have to manage a pet, then... well... *waves goodbye*

I get that fewer viable options can = bad, and that some people have grown fond of Sacrifice, but without pets, warlocks are more or less basically emo mages mechanic-wise...if you don't want to deal with the hassle of pet management then you might as well top the charts with a mage and just give him a sinister backstory and some eyeliner.

*Puts on the +5 Grandpappy Hat*

I don't mean to sound insensitive towards my fellow locks, but sympathy comes a little hard when I remember playing a demo just last expansion, juggling around 20 different abilities (including CDs) in every single fight, on top of engaging in the utterly ridiculous and annoying practice of pet twisting (do the 15 other warlocks left in WoW at the time remember that BS?) to even approach a competent and geared mage on damage.

So if you ask me, I'd say wanting to remove pet management and even further simplify the class without taking at least a slight hit in DPS is a case of wanting your cake and eating it too. Just my 2 copper.
Edited by Backslider on 3/2/2013 4:28 AM PST
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90 Gnome Warlock
13490


So if you ask me, I'd say wanting to remove pet management and even further simplify the class without taking at least a slight hit in DPS is a case of wanting your cake and eating it too. Just my 2 copper.


If pet AI was not horrible, I would not mind.

But having my pet run halfway across the room to reach a boss after it gets feared/etc. is not good AI. There's a straight line it can run, but no. Because the boss is on say a platform, the pet decides the best course of action is to spend 10 minutes running around the platform and up the stairs, despite the fact it got feared down the slope.

Or the fact pets will switch targets with you when you're on the adds, despite the fact MOST of the time it's better for them to stay on the boss.

Or the fact the wrathguard does not cast Legion Strike until the debuff is off, which energy caps him a LOT.

Pet AI is horrible. People are not complaining about using pets. People are complaining about using pets when Blizzard has done nothing to fix their AI in 8 years.

On top of that, I have no problem using a pet as demonology. That's a spec I feel should be using a pet. However, as I said, there is now lore reasons why destruction and affliction may not have a pet.

Pet AI is horrible, plain and simple. Until they fix it, telling us we should be at a loss if we don't want to macro every single damn ability to have /petattack and /cast Legion Strike and such, isn't something you should be saying.

All this "pet management" is simply adding actions to macros for buttons you already press. That's no less simply than having no pet, FYI. Our issue is how pets do things without managing them. Hell, even on my hunter I'm fine. But warlock pets have always been horrible.

So no, you shouldn't gain a DPS bonus just because you macro a few skills to another couple skills. We should be equal. That is the ENTIRE POINT OF THE TALENT SYSTEM REVAMP. But according to Ghostcrawler, Warlocks are exempt from this rule. Why even have Grimoire of Sacrifice then? Give us a grimoire that permanently enslaves a demon if they're so intent on us having pets.

And you comment explains EXACTLY why sacrifice should not be made a DPS loss. There were BARELY ANY WARLOCKS LEFT IN CATACLYSM. The mists revamp, and a BIG PART OF THAT WAS SACRIFICE brought people back to this class. Making sacrifice a loss will take those away.

Then what? Back to seeing a warlock every 3 months in a group?

On live, they are at a good place.

Affliction uses sacrifice all the time.
Destruction can CHOOSE sacrifice or Supremacy.
Demonology uses Service or Supremacy.

There is 1 spec that uses a pet, 1 that can choose to use a pet, 1 that doesn't use a pet, and 1 that can choose not to use a pet.

That is perfectly balanced. They should never have messed with it just because they feel too many people grabbed Sacrifice. I was even fine with the 5% destruction sac nerf. But a 10% destruction and god knows what it's up to now for affliction nerf was uncalled for.
Edited by Bitsi on 3/2/2013 4:33 AM PST
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100 Orc Warlock
11960
Despite the pet macros, surely it is at least a little bit more of a hassle to have a pet out though? Otherwise no one would care about Sacrifice nerfs yes? Even if the difficulty arises because the braindead AI is braindead, and because you at least occasionally have to deal with despawning/suicidal pets. So the question then becomes...what is the motivation to have a pet, if your DPS is the same without it? If a spec requires managing an admittedly derpy critter while another spec gets the same DPS without the hassle (however slight) isn't that at least a little unfair for the pet spec?

And I don't think the answer to that should be making Sacrifice the talent of choice for all specs...obviously since demons are kind of a warlock thing, and the AI is agreed to be derpy, I'd rather Blizzard stopped doing home repairs with Sacrifice and instead made the AI a tad sharper. That way at least we'd have a warlock population large enough to have a voice without that warlock population being made up mostly of petless pseudo-mages. :/ No mixing of classes! Class purity! Rawr! (Unless we can be hybrids that is).

It's very possible that I simply find scraps to be a feast after experiencing Cata, but I'm personally more than happy to continue to deal with stupid minions since lock rotations (especially demo) also have been made less chaotic while in addition received buffs (looking forward to 5.2!). But again, I could just have low standards, and have developed a slightly masochistic taste for a bit of needless complexity and micromanagement
Edited by Backslider on 3/2/2013 5:16 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
0
On live, they are at a good place.

Affliction uses sacrifice all the time.
Destruction can CHOOSE sacrifice or Supremacy.
Demonology uses Service or Supremacy.


To add to that, affliction can actually make good use of supremacy on certain target rich fights where MG isn't used as much. Seemed perfect to me (aside from a bit too much damage in affliction's case), but it goes against a developer's "vision" or whatever.
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100 Undead Warlock
14625
The reason i liked the sacrifice talent was not because pets are hard to manage, i am a warlock since the game came out and i have always loved the destruction spec. back in the day when reading my talent choices for the first time comming across demonic sacrifice it led me in the direction of knowing that i could take that selfish route that makes sense for destro to be sacrificing their pet to gain more power.

if you think that you should be gimped for choosing sacrifice specifically for pvp then why not remove the feature to gain the ability of the pet so that its choosing direct damage over the ability to control the flow of battle, no spell lock or dispel would make it a lot less flattering of a talent.

honestly if they really want people to not use it that much, get rid of it and bring back the specific pets for each spec. there is absolutely no synergy for choosing a pet now, its simply a "check the spreadsheet for which one will do the most deeps and summon that one only". bring back the imp that worked with destro to give instant soul fires and change it to instant chaos bolts or reset the cool down on conflagrate or something.

IMO in my perfect world, i would just kill the whole tier of talents and assign each one to each spec that it makes sense for.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
9415
So that the few people who don't enjoy warlock pets can pretend they're a mage.
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90 Undead Warlock
6900
I don't like GoSac, but I'll use it so long as it allows me to eke out more DPS.
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90 Orc Warlock
8765
You guys seem to be talking more about pve than pvp but I thought I would throw this out there because I think it's a good example of general warlock pet flaws. Sometimes when I unbound will out of priest fears my GoSac will go away and my voidwalker will be standing next to me. Not really sure what that is about. Still prefer GoSac for pvp burst.
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90 Undead Warlock
11815
03/02/2013 08:38 AMPosted by Mandorgan
I don't like GoSac, but I'll use it so long as it allows me to eke out more DPS.


This is why they keep nerfing it. Since you feel FORCED to take it.
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90 Gnome Warlock
13490
I don't like GoSac, but I'll use it so long as it allows me to eke out more DPS.


This is why they keep nerfing it. Since you feel FORCED to take it.


Except now we'll all feel FORCED to grab Supremacy. Because they're PURPOSELY making it a dps LOSS to grab sac.

We have a decent choice now. Sac/Sup on live are within 1k dps of each other.

On the PTR, there's a 5k+ DPS disparity between them.
Edited by Bitsi on 3/2/2013 9:53 AM PST
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100 Orc Warlock
14405
I thought the idea of the difficulty tax (or whatever it was called) was dead?

And I expect that most Affliction warlocks in 5.2 will likely continue to use Grimoire of Sacrifice, so expect it to be nerfed further in 5.3, or even in a hotfix.
Edited by Vreivai on 3/2/2013 10:20 AM PST
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90 Troll Warlock
9210
Why does GoSac exist? Nobody knows.
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90 Orc Warlock
8265
I thought the idea of the difficulty tax (or whatever it was called) was dead?

And I expect that most Affliction warlocks in 5.2 will likely continue to use Grimoire of Sacrifice, so expect it to be nerfed further in 5.3, or even in a hotfix.
Ofc it'll be nerfed again in 5.3. It's a gear scaling talent where Sup isn't. When the gear goes up for another tier you're going to need a nerf to keep them in line.

03/02/2013 09:52 AMPosted by Bitsi
On the PTR, there's a 5k+ DPS disparity between them.
Are you testing this with full T15 gear or with your current T14/T14H gear?
Edited by Loktronotron on 3/2/2013 10:50 AM PST
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100 Orc Warlock
11340
I hate GC...and I will NOT use anything but GoSac because pets are annoying.

I think it would be awesome if everyone put up a big middle finger to GC and took only GoSac during next patch
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90 Gnome Warlock
13490

Are you testing this with full T15 gear or with your current T14/T14H gear?


Look at my gear and ask me again if I'm dumb enough to test dps with it.

I mean, I have to reforge everything to hit/expertise in this gear just to get hit capped. I'm not testing crap with this gear.

This game does not like to give gear to my warlocks or rogues. 3 weeks and the only thing I've gotten from LFR on Bitsi is from Feng. The robe and 2 necklaces. Both necklaces have been disenchanted, and the robes I'm wearing and DEd the crafted 476. Lol.
Edited by Bitsi on 3/2/2013 12:02 PM PST
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