Illuminated Healing OP?

90 Worgen Druid
4810
Sweet baby paladin Jesus.

No one has started arguing whether or not IH is a passive or active bonus yet?

This thread may actually go somewhere.


Haha, I think we we're arguing different things in that thread! =p

I do think shielding needs to be toned down a bit, but it doesn't feel completely broken now that disc has been reeled in a bit.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Fistlobster: He's talking about healers, and he can feel free to jump in and correct me, but I don't think anyone's calling for an all-around nerf of shield healers. Just a change in the way healing class + spec's shields work to put more emphasis on heals and less on absorbs. This would mean boosting shield healers' healing to compensate for less shielding.

EDIT: Clarified, just to be safe, that I am only talking about healer shields, not DK, BrM, Pally tank, or any other type of shield out there.


Out of curiosity, how exactly do you expect this to work out when absorbs from everyone pile on top of each other?

Will a 10k IH on top of a 40k adding to a 50k shield sort out to reduce only 20% of the 10k IH? Are you going to hit a Holy's Sacred Shield and not a Prot's? If you put it on the healer class, wouldn't that make things like Angelic Bulwark (the absorb talent proc for PRiests) really silly? Why do you want to nerf a Holy Priest's PW:S?

I mean, the complaining is about IH. CLearly hitting a wide-ranging move of classes and causing 10 more issues is the appropraite response, as opposed to assessing if IH (or if you want to lump in Disc, Discipline) is balanced or not.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/12/2013 1:43 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
5355
Posted by LeviathelVery productive responses to Zarotustr's question. Nice.Are you reading the same post I'm reading? The whole post reeks of general ignorance. Want me to clarify?03/12/2013 12:13 PMPosted by ZarotustrDK's are not healers, however. Who cares if their absorbs stay different?So, we should take away a death knight's ability to self mitigate just because you want to see paladins do less healing? They don't matter because they aren't healers, according to you. Oh, and what about a monk's only real tank cooldown, Life Cocoon? Should that be nerfed as well? Or perhaps a shaman's self-applied absorb, that should be nerfed as well, correct? All in the name to make IH less effective.DA "double standard" is only relevant if something unfair happens, otherwise it is called "being different".A double standard is a double standard, no matter how you look at it. Whether it's advantageous or otherwise, it's still a double standard. The idea that you want to nerf healing across the board to bring paladins in line, in your mind, but leaving Death Knights in the dust because their only form of mitigation is their self heals and absorb, not to mention other classes like Disc priests, is a huge double standard. It just is.If my car is white and yours is blue, it is not a double standard, it's just different. This has nothing to do with anything whatsoever, and honestly, it's two completely different ideas pulled from the Nether. Honestly, I'm not sure I follow exactly where you came up with this.


and others, thanks for insightful comments. Nice try.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Calling me ignorant, huh? I must say I misjudged the average IQ on these forums. Or maybe it's a straw man trick, who knows.

To clarify, no one is suggesting to touch the DK shields. I suggested to modify how healer absorbs work. I will say it again, DK's are not healers. The point of the thread is the balance and competition between the 6 different healer classes. DK's are not able to heal anyone else with their absorbs.

On the paladin and priest absorbs vs DK's absorbs, how is it a moral question now? This is not a double standard. A double standard implies unfairness. If, on the other hand, the way HEALER absorbs work was changed and instead they received a compensation to balance their healing, you cannot call it double standard. I may be asking too much, but there is a difference, however subtle, between a double standard (derogatory) and a different application of a method or a different way things work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_standard

"A double standard, thus, can be described as a sort of biased, morally unfair suspension (toward a certain group) of the principle that all are equal in their freedoms. Such double standards are seen as unjustified because they violate a basic maxim of modern legal jurisprudence: that all parties should stand equal before the law. Double standards also violate the principle of justice known as impartiality, which is based on the assumption that the same standards should be applied to all people, without regard to subjective bias or favoritism based on social class, rank, ethnicity, gender, religion, sexual orientation, age or other distinctions. "
Edited by Zarotustr on 3/12/2013 3:00 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
5355
Except he did.Not to say that Blizzard has ever been particularly serious about balance (seriously, fourth expansion, N'th patch, how hard is it to look at a class lagging behind by 15% and just add 15% to their output across the board), but if they were to balance absorbs, they could make them trigger after a portion of the damage is already applied, thus either A) reduce damage by a set percentage and then disappear or B) allow say 20-40% of damage to ignore the shield.


We are brainstorming here. Obviously exact numbers would have to be fine-tuned. DK's are not healers, however. Who cares if their absorbs stay different? A "double standard" is only relevant if something unfair happens, otherwise it is called "being different". If my car is white and yours is blue, it is not a double standard, it's just different.


Note that I said DK's are not healers, meaning I do not want to touch the way their absorbs work. I thought everyone is tuned in to the fact that this is a healer forums topic and we are talking about healers, responding to the OP of this thread. Also I said about DK's that their aborbs will stay different (read: be different from other, i.e. healer, absorbs). You imply what you want, but I am talking about healers here, responding to the OP of this thread. This is a healer forum and DK or other tank shields are not part of the shield/absorbs issues, hence I am not suggesting to change those.
Edited by Zarotustr on 3/12/2013 3:17 PM PDT
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Fistlobster: He's talking about healers, and he can feel free to jump in and correct me, but I don't think anyone's calling for an all-around nerf of shield healers. Just a change in the way healing class + spec's shields work to put more emphasis on heals and less on absorbs. This would mean boosting shield healers' healing to compensate for less shielding.

EDIT: Clarified, just to be safe, that I am only talking about healer shields, not DK, BrM, Pally tank, or any other type of shield out there.


Out of curiosity, how exactly do you expect this to work out when absorbs from everyone pile on top of each other?

Will a 10k IH on top of a 40k adding to a 50k shield sort out to reduce only 20% of the 10k IH? Are you going to hit a Holy's Sacred Shield and not a Prot's? If you put it on the healer class, wouldn't that make things like Angelic Bulwark (the absorb talent proc for PRiests) really silly? Why do you want to nerf a Holy Priest's PW:S?

I mean, the complaining is about IH. CLearly hitting a wide-ranging move of classes and causing 10 more issues is the appropraite response, as opposed to assessing if IH (or if you want to lump in Disc, Discipline) is balanced or not.

To clear it up, I'm not the one who suggested shields allow some damage through, I just didn't like the way people misunderstood the original suggestion and apparently decided the poster was scum of the earth. Letting some damage through shields is an idea to consider, but my only suggestion so far was to reduce shielding and buff healing for absorb specs. Or reduce absorbs and buff shield utility. Tons of ways it can be handled.

Absorbs in general are an interesting mechanic, but can cause balance issues. Maybe they could be made to be useful but not so hugely impactful as they currently are (for the healing classes only).
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
To be completely honest... Blizzard should recognize a pattern by now:

Aborbs GODMODE.

Regular heals go sit in a corner.

Disc Priests and Holy Paladins are the haves. Everyone else is the have nots.

Druids are OK now in 10s if not paired with those 2, and Holy Priests are on solid ground as well (Disc still appears to be a good bit superior on 10 in most T15 fights). The others are just LOL.

But it should be obvious how out of balance absorbs are and always will be. Something needs to be done.


Druids are okay even when paired with those two. I just raided Tortos with a resto druid and his heals were right on par with ours.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Absorbs in general are an interesting mechanic, but can cause balance issues. Maybe they could be made to be useful but not so hugely impactful as they currently are (for the healing classes only).


Absorbs do not need to be reduced at the moment. You are looking through the prism of never seeing actual content. You cannot judge "balance" based on LFR.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12955
So, you have to look at Holy Pallies overall. I think they are tuned mostly OK right now, if not maybe 5-10% too high given the amount of raid utility they bring. I do worry that their Mastery is going to scale too well with gear and possibly become a Disc Priest 5.1 like situation later in this tier. With 60%+ of their output coming from mana free healing sources (IH, LoD, Eternal Flame, Beacon, Daybreak), I could also see low Spirit builds becoming popular with a bit more gear.

IH is never going to be a Disc 5.1 situation, because IH is incapable of negating mechanics. You could never actually cap it on the whole raid (or even come close); you can get nice-sized shields on a couple of people, but mostly it's just a lot of little shields all over the raid absorbing small amounts of damage.

It does do a nice job of 'softening' damage patterns a little bit, but really it just takes the edge off. Which is important given that our raid CD is crap.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6580
The game will never be perfectly balanced. If you focus on "playing" instead of "being a whiny !@#$%" your life will be so much happier. :)
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100 Tauren Druid
9610

IH is never going to be a Disc 5.1 situation, because IH is incapable of negating mechanics. You could never actually cap it on the whole raid (or even come close); you can get nice-sized shields on a couple of people, but mostly it's just a lot of little shields all over the raid absorbing small amounts of damage.

It does do a nice job of 'softening' damage patterns a little bit, but really it just takes the edge off. Which is important given that our raid CD is crap.


While I agree with that in principle, I believe you're looking at it in a vacuum. Without considering that the Pally isn't the only healer. When you have another healer in the mix, those mechanics become incredibly powerful. If I do say so myself, they're indeed OP.

Though an argument can be made/discussed to whether it's IH or EF. I don't know, but one of the two need tweaking.

The game will never be perfectly balanced. If you focus on "playing" instead of "being a whiny !@#$%" your life will be so much happier. :)


Hello there 5.1 disc priest! How you managing life now? Oh I see, already switched to pally.
Edited by Tonydanza on 3/13/2013 6:24 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150

IH is never going to be a Disc 5.1 situation, because IH is incapable of negating mechanics. You could never actually cap it on the whole raid (or even come close); you can get nice-sized shields on a couple of people, but mostly it's just a lot of little shields all over the raid absorbing small amounts of damage.

It does do a nice job of 'softening' damage patterns a little bit, but really it just takes the edge off. Which is important given that our raid CD is crap.


While I agree with that in principle, I believe you're looking at it in a vacuum. Without considering that the Pally isn't the only healer. When you have another healer in the mix, those mechanics become incredibly powerful. If I do say so myself, they're indeed OP.


That's class synergy, not class balance though.

You can't balance synergy, because there are just too many variables. It's hard enough to achieve "class balance" across archtype roles, and when you do, it's a matter of identifying and adjusting outliers, vice anything else.

Are paladins in the same position Disc Priests were 2 weeks ago? No. I'm saying this as someone who started topping the charts after the DPriest nerf. I'm ahead, but nearly as far ahead as they were on me. It's not even the same ball park. And it's not every pally in raid on the top of the lists. I may have an advantage over the priests, but they are still beating out lesser geared HPals, or those who don't have 40%+ mastery. Depending on fight mechanics, they shine, and I drop down a few slots.

As more damage comes in (faster) they have a real advantage over me though. I can only heal so many, so fast. Those absorbs keep people from taking MORE damage, but they're not raising people's hp back up to full like real healing does. It's gum for a hole in a dam.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
To clear it up, I'm not the one who suggested shields allow some damage through, I just didn't like the way people misunderstood the original suggestion and apparently decided the poster was scum of the earth.


Actually, it's just that they understand the concept he's talking about where he doesn't. Based on his suggestion, the guy hasn't even thought about the consequences of his suggestions on Holy Paladins alone, let alone Priests and the interactions between Holy and Disc when it comes to the change he's talking about; he just wants to massively change things because his logs don't look nice.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/13/2013 7:14 AM PDT
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
The best thing Paladins can do for themselves is prepare for the inevitable.

Though with any luck they won't get their nerf until after this tier. The Glad mount is awesome as well so there's that consolation.

You are obscenely OP in PVP (ghostcrawler has explicitly called you OP in multiple twitter posts). You are topping the PvE charts with the best kind of healing (absorbs) and Utility that every other healer but a Shaman would kill to have.

You deserve nerfs. You will get nerfs. IH is just one part of that, albeit a big one.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
The best thing Paladins can do for themselves is prepare for the inevitable.

Though with any luck they won't get their nerf until after this tier. The Glad mount is awesome as well so there's that consolation.

You are obscenely OP in PVP (ghostcrawler has explicitly called you OP in multiple twitter posts). You are topping the PvE charts with the best kind of healing (absorbs) and Utility that every other healer but a Shaman would kill to have.

You deserve nerfs. You will get nerfs. IH is just one part of that, albeit a big one.


Says someone scared to show his true self.
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90 Draenei Shaman
5355
03/13/2013 07:13 AMPosted by Slashlove
To clear it up, I'm not the one who suggested shields allow some damage through, I just didn't like the way people misunderstood the original suggestion and apparently decided the poster was scum of the earth.


Actually, it's just that they understand the concept he's talking about where he doesn't. Based on his suggestion, the guy hasn't even thought about the consequences of his suggestions on Holy Paladins alone, let alone Priests and the interactions between Holy and Disc when it comes to the change he's talking about; he just wants to massively change things because his logs don't look nice.


Yes, let's resort to personal attacks instead of argument vs counterargument, suggestions, questions. Civil discussion cannot happen. Let's just make wild assumptions about the other poster we disagree with. To be clear, I don't care about MY healing charts, as you can see, I am not even raiding. I am responding to an argument which seems logical to me: how are other healers to show what they can do if aborbs prevent their spells from being useful? Absorbs taking priority before other heals is in a way an unfair mechanic (I am talking about healer aborbs only BTW).

Someone erroneously brought up double standards here. OK, how about a "double standard" in the way heals work: some get to be used first, others have to wait. And from what I read on these forums. this issue does seem to affect the way healers are selected, perhaps affecting raid spots.

Just wondering, what do YOU see wrong with a healer absorb shield triggering after a a certain percentage of damage goes through? A bit similar to how armor works. Isn't it the same as if the healer was not one that uses absorbs? If so, how is this going to break things? if your main healing comes from absorbs, well, now you are made to use your other heals, and those can be buffed, if needed, and yes, you give a chance for other healers to be useful.

This is just a different mechanic to consider, and I am not a dev after all, but, instead of presenting a counder argument that can be challenged or accepted, you attack the person. I guess I expect too much of you. No wonder I cannot stick around in this game for too long any more. The community is just aweful.
Edited by Zarotustr on 3/13/2013 10:29 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
4810

Yes, let's resort to personal attacks instead of argument vs counterargument, suggestions, questions.


The community is just aweful.


Why stick to personal attacks when you can generalize and attack a much larger population, eh?
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90 Worgen Druid
4810

Just wondering, what do YOU see wrong with a healer absorb shield triggering after a a certain percentage of damage goes through?


For starters, it's not intuitive. It also seems like an unnecessary change. It may be somebody's preference to have it work this way, but it's likely many others to keep things functioning how they are. Now, I could be convinced that shielding as a whole needs to be toned down, but there's likely a less complex and more intuitive way to accomplish that rather than turn healing mechanics on their heads.
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Absorbs do not need to be reduced at the moment. You are looking through the prism of never seeing actual content. You cannot judge "balance" based on LFR.

I'm not talking about how much they literally do, but rather that by having a couple of healing classes emphasize absorbs it makes everything harder to balance. I don't care about LFR numbers -at all-. I'm not posting here because I'm getting trounced in my silly little LFRs by disc priests or pallies. I'm just talking about how absorbs tend to negate and make other forms of healing less valuable just by their nature, even more so than simply topping the tanks/raid off faster than someone else.

I'm totally open to the possibility that I'm utterly wrong, but people certainly get uber defensive when their favorite mechanic is discussed on here. Personal attacks were pretty quick to follow any suggestion of change. I don't see why people are so upset with the idea of a lessening in one area of output and an increase in another.

Lastly, just because I'm newly returned to WoW, don't assume I'm some LFR superstar preaching from ignorance. =)
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90 Draenei Shaman
5355

Yes, let's resort to personal attacks instead of argument vs counterargument, suggestions, questions.


The community is just aweful.


Why stick to personal attacks when you can generalize and attack a much larger population, eh?


Again a personal attack rather than arguing a point. Yes, the community as a whole is terrible, it is my opinion, even though there are nice people, too, but it does not take many to spoil it. Where else do you present a suggestion and get insulted for doing so?
Edited by Zarotustr on 3/13/2013 1:02 PM PDT
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