Illuminated Healing OP?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Yes, let's resort to personal attacks instead of argument vs counterargument, suggestions, questions. Civil discussion cannot happen. Let's just make wild assumptions about the other poster we disagree with. To be clear, I don't care about MY healing charts, as you can see, I am not even raiding. I am responding to an argument which seems logical to me: how are other healers to show what they can do if aborbs prevent their spells from being useful? Absorbs taking priority before other heals is in a way an unfair mechanic (I am talking about healer aborbs only BTW).

Someone erroneously brought up double standards here. OK, how about a "double standard" in the way heals work: some get to be used first, others have to wait. And from what I read on these forums. this issue does seem to affect the way healers are selected, perhaps affecting raid spots.

Just wondering, what do YOU see wrong with a healer absorb shield triggering after a a certain percentage of damage goes through? A bit similar to how armor works. Isn't it the same as if the healer was not one that uses absorbs? If so, how is this going to break things? if your main healing comes from absorbs, well, now you are made to use your other heals, and those can be buffed, if needed, and yes, you give a chance for other healers to be useful.

This is just a different mechanic to consider, and I am not a dev after all, but, instead of presenting a counder argument that can be challenged or accepted, you attack the person. I guess I expect too much of you. No wonder I cannot stick around in this game for too long any more. The community is just aweful.


But that's not how absorbs are working for paladins. You're going to take raid damage. Even if we had the entire raid stacked with full IH absorbs (50% of the paladins hp = 200k max). The damage comes in so fast, and so hard, that a paladin cannot blanket a raid.

What we can do is "stop the bleeding" so that other healers can get people back to full HP. Our absorbs may eat "minor" damage, but even in LFR, they aren't powerful enough to prevent real hp loss.

We'll either see the raid take damage (or know it is about to take damage), and drop some spells. Using the first mob in ToT, the raid takes massive damage. Yes, a paladin can heal everyone through that.... once. But in reality, you need the other classes far more than us, because they can get people's HP back up. We're preventing damage. They're healing it. It's that team work that makes it great.

As for letting damage through first.... what happens if you only have that much left? It's a block, not a reduction. Both types of "mitigation" have their advantages/disadvantages, but changing the status quo to a different system may not fix anything, and creat even worse problems.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
03/13/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Leviathel
Absorbs do not need to be reduced at the moment. You are looking through the prism of never seeing actual content. You cannot judge "balance" based on LFR.

I'm not talking about how much they literally do, but rather that by having a couple of healing classes emphasize absorbs it makes everything harder to balance. I don't care about LFR numbers -at all-. I'm not posting here because I'm getting trounced in my silly little LFRs by disc priests or pallies. I'm just talking about how absorbs tend to negate and make other forms of healing less valuable just by their nature, even more so than simply topping the tanks/raid off faster than someone else.

I'm totally open to the possibility that I'm utterly wrong, but people certainly get uber defensive when their favorite mechanic is discussed on here. Personal attacks were pretty quick to follow any suggestion of change. I don't see why people are so upset with the idea of a lessening in one area of output and an increase in another.

Lastly, just because I'm newly returned to WoW, don't assume I'm some LFR superstar preaching from ignorance. =)


That's the trick though. Every class heals differently. Pallies currently use the absorb mechanic ON TOP OF our base heals. it is a very prominent part, but game mechanics actually prevent our base heals from landing as well as the rest of our heals.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
8315
What we can do is "stop the bleeding" so that other healers can get people back to full HP. Our absorbs may eat "minor" damage, but even in LFR, they aren't powerful enough to prevent real hp loss.

We'll either see the raid take damage (or know it is about to take damage), and drop some spells. Using the first mob in ToT, the raid takes massive damage. Yes, a paladin can heal everyone through that.... once. But in reality, you need the other classes far more than us, because they can get people's HP back up. We're preventing damage.

I Disagree. If you were describing disc priests, then yes what you said makes complete sense. But the fact remains that pallies have massive throughput, as well as absorbs. They always have. If they have any weakness at all it's in a lack of a raid-wide cd like tranq, but saying that your job is to prevent damage while other healers restore health is improper class analysis.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
What we can do is "stop the bleeding" so that other healers can get people back to full HP. Our absorbs may eat "minor" damage, but even in LFR, they aren't powerful enough to prevent real hp loss.

We'll either see the raid take damage (or know it is about to take damage), and drop some spells. Using the first mob in ToT, the raid takes massive damage. Yes, a paladin can heal everyone through that.... once. But in reality, you need the other classes far more than us, because they can get people's HP back up. We're preventing damage.

I Disagree. If you were describing disc priests, then yes what you said makes complete sense. But the fact remains that pallies have massive throughput, as well as absorbs. They always have. If they have any weakness at all it's in a lack of a raid-wide cd like tranq, but saying that your job is to prevent damage while other healers restore health is improper class analysis.


I agree that we have great throughput. We also have huge ramp up to get there. That puts us in a bad position in any fight where "massive raidwide damage" is coming in. Others are going to be able to heal (raise hp) faster, from the start. We will catch up, and eventually surpass them, but... and this is a big but, those first couple of heals are doing nothing more than stopping incoming raid damage (via absorbs). Once the incoming damage has stopped, we definitely start to shine, but while damage is inbound, we're "stopping the bleeding" more than anything else.

We're preventing further raid damage (through heals & absorbs). Everyone else is doing straight up healing. We're buying them time to heal "while damage is inbound."

The ramp up time creates this issue. Adding mastery (IH) alleviates it for us. Our mechanics prevent us from being like disc priests.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
8315
What ramp up time are you referring to? Literally the only thing I can think of is having holy power, but the answer to that is just to bank some up in anticipation of heavy incoming damage. Additionally, every cd you have is reactive, and a straight throughput buff.

I agree that mastery shields help to dampen incoming damage, but you seem to be trying to justify it by painting yourself as the raid buffer class, while everyone else fills up health bars. My experience is exactly the opposit...holy paladins absolutely excel at large, hard hitting heals...what you referred to as "straight up healing". Output is the focus of pally healing, and the absorbs are an extra bonus to dampen damage while you continue to fill health bars, not the other way around.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8505


That's the trick though. Every class heals differently. Pallies currently use the absorb mechanic ON TOP OF our base heals. it is a very prominent part, but game mechanics actually prevent our base heals from landing as well as the rest of our heals.


Isn't it all just going to come down to the numbers once enough Guilds have run through the Hard Modes? Whether it's the Pally mechanic or not doesn't preclude the numbers being too high. Some of the Pally responses in this thread remind me of Druid's talking about their throughput in Firelands.

I'm not saying I agree with the OP but if Pally's numbers are too high and Illuminated Healing is a large percentage of their heals one would expect an adjustment to the Holy Pally Mastery for balance.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12155


That's the trick though. Every class heals differently. Pallies currently use the absorb mechanic ON TOP OF our base heals. it is a very prominent part, but game mechanics actually prevent our base heals from landing as well as the rest of our heals.


Isn't it all just going to come down to the numbers once enough Guilds have run through the Hard Modes? Whether it's the Pally mechanic or not doesn't preclude the numbers being too high. Some of the Pally responses in this thread remind me of Druid's talking about their throughput in Firelands.

I'm not saying I agree with the OP but if Pally's numbers are too high and Illuminated Healing is a large percentage of their heals one would expect an adjustment to the Holy Pally Mastery for balance.

That's fine. If the overall numbers (in hardmodes where shields don't distort things) justify a nerf, then nerf away. But there's nothing mechanically wrong with IH and no particular reason to direct the nerf at it specifically. There's definitely no reason to nerf it if paladins don't turn out to need an overall nerf.
Edited by Kaels on 3/13/2013 3:54 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8505

That's fine. If the overall numbers (in hardmodes where shields don't distort things) justify a nerf, then nerf away. But there's nothing mechanically wrong with IH and no particular reason to direct the nerf at it specifically. There's definitely no reason to nerf it if paladins don't turn out to need an overall nerf.


Maybe the discussion should be what percentage of overall healing should be represented by any Healer Mastery? All the Healer Mastery's are passive and require little to no input on the part of the player. Where should that kind of passive effect land in terms of healing? I'm bringing it up because those kinds of discussions interest me not because I give a rat's rear about Healing meters.

I take the stance that passive damage or healing should never represent the largest throughput source for any class. It's one reason I always hated Rogue design. So I think whether Pally's are OP, just fine or weak when the final balance numbers are run by the devs that if Illuminated Healing is generally the top heal something is wrong.

Whether it's adjusted alone or in tandem with buffs to the rest of the kit would be based on the data.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
14735
Maybe the discussion should be what percentage of overall healing should be represented by any Healer Mastery? All the Healer Mastery's are passive and require little to no input on the part of the player. Where should that kind of passive effect land in terms of healing?


Roughly equal to the passive effect of an equivalent amount of crit, or int.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8505
03/13/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Nerfheals
Maybe the discussion should be what percentage of overall healing should be represented by any Healer Mastery? All the Healer Mastery's are passive and require little to no input on the part of the player. Where should that kind of passive effect land in terms of healing?


Roughly equal to the passive effect of an equivalent amount of crit, or int.


I agree about Crit. Int is a primary stat though so I don't think it's Apples to Apples.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12155
I take the stance that passive damage or healing should never represent the largest throughput source for any class. It's one reason I always hated Rogue design. So I think whether Pally's are OP, just fine or weak when the final balance numbers are run by the devs that if Illuminated Healing is generally the top heal something is wrong.

It doesn't matter, as long as the end result is balanced.

Maybe the discussion should be what percentage of overall healing should be represented by any Healer Mastery? All the Healer Mastery's are passive and require little to no input on the part of the player. Where should that kind of passive effect land in terms of healing? I'm bringing it up because those kinds of discussions interest me not because I give a rat's rear about Healing meters.

Illuminated Healing is 'passive' only if you also believe that all of the additional healing we gain from spellpower and crit is 'passive'. In which case >90% of all healers' healing is 'passive'.

It is a stat that boosts the size of our heals. It is part of our heals. We cast spells actively with the active expectation that they will do a certain amount of healing, some of which happens to come in the form of shields for paladins or HoTs for holy priests. There is nothing passive about it. It doesn't just sort of accidentally happen; we plan for it, gear for it, and work to maximize it.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8505
03/13/2013 06:27 PMPosted by Kaels
I take the stance that passive damage or healing should never represent the largest throughput source for any class. It's one reason I always hated Rogue design. So I think whether Pally's are OP, just fine or weak when the final balance numbers are run by the devs that if Illuminated Healing is generally the top heal something is wrong.

It doesn't matter, as long as the end result is balanced.


The devs are famous for deciding that some skill is out of whack even if the numbers are balanced.

Maybe the discussion should be what percentage of overall healing should be represented by any Healer Mastery? All the Healer Mastery's are passive and require little to no input on the part of the player. Where should that kind of passive effect land in terms of healing? I'm bringing it up because those kinds of discussions interest me not because I give a rat's rear about Healing meters.

Illuminated Healing is 'passive' only if you also believe that all of the additional healing we gain from spellpower and crit is 'passive'. In which case >90% of all healers' healing is 'passive'.

It is a stat that boosts the size of our heals. It is part of our heals. We cast spells actively with the active expectation that they will do a certain amount of healing, some of which happens to come in the form of shields for paladins or HoTs for holy priests. There is nothing passive about it. It doesn't just sort of accidentally happen; we plan for it, gear for it, and work to maximize it.


What's with the undying love for Illuminated Healing? If the rest of the kit was Buffed to compensate for IH being lower thus making Mastery slightly less attractive what's the big deal? You just said above that if the numbers are balanced then that's all that matters. Why the passionate defense of mass Bubbles?

And it's a bit different than something like Crit or Int. A passive Bubble on every cast is different than larger heals. That's a subjective concept though. It's my opinion and I'm cool with you having a different take.

Planning, gearing and working? for how to reforge or what gear to look for doesn't change it's nature. It's a Passive skill that takes almost zero input form the player since it procs off of heals you would be casting anyway...but that's beside the point.

Shouldn't all the Secondaries be as equal as possible?
Edited by Zootzoot on 3/13/2013 7:18 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12155
03/13/2013 07:12 PMPosted by Zootzoot
What's with the undying love for Illuminated Healing?

What's with the hate for it? What did it ever do to you? Do you even play a paladin?

03/13/2013 07:12 PMPosted by Zootzoot
If the rest of the kit was Buffed to compensate for IH being lower thus making Mastery slightly less attractive what's the big deal?

If this were actually done correctly? No problem at all.

The track record on Blizz internal rebalancing, however, is not promising. I'd prefer they just not fix things that aren't broken.

I mean, seriously. It's like you're saying "You're being so unreasonable! Why don't you want the devs messing around with your perfectly functional spec for no reason whatsoever, just because I, who am not a paladin, don't like how your healing meter breakdowns look?!?!" Really? You don't get why that's a problem?

And it's a bit different than something like Crit or Int. A passive Bubble on every cast is different than larger heals. That's a subjective concept though. It's my opinion and I'm cool with you having a different take.

It is not a "passive bubble." It is part of the heal in exactly the same way druid and shaman mastery is part of the heal. We cast our spells with the expectation that each will produce a certain-size heal and a certain-size bubble, just like a druid casts their spells with the expectation that each will produce a certain-size heal. It is part of healing decisions just like spellpower is, just like holy priest mastery is, just like druid and shaman mastery is.

Planning, gearing and working? for how to reforge or what gear to look for doesn't change it's nature. It's a Passive skill that takes almost zero input form the player since it procs off of heals you would be casting anyway...but that's beside the point.

There's more that goes into maximizing IH than just "stack mastery lol."

Shouldn't all the Secondaries be as equal as possible?

Meh. Crit will never be equal to non-RNG stats, Haste serves a different purpose from Mastery, and paladin Mastery is already generally weaker than Spirit.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Priest
10225
In regards to Kaels, I don't think anyone here is trying to attack you or IH, we're not saying that its broken even, in fact its kind of the opposite. Like disc DA was too big (along with spirit shell), IH just seems to be too powerful so working too well, not asking Bliz to totally rework how it functions, it just needs to be brought back down to earth where the rest of the healers are. You can't possibly say that paladins are absolutely perfect in balance right now when no other healer can even come close to touching their output in both absorbs and direct heals, not to mention the best tank heals in the game. Not saying do away with IH, it just needs to be looked at, whether that is reducing the absorb, or just un-linking it from being applied by so many spells. It is arguably the best mastery (since disc mastery was nerfed) for any healer class as its a 100% chance of application. So if DA was thought to be overpowered and changed, and quite honestly IH is a very similar mechanic, why shouldn't IH get the same treatment? Its not like disc priests were completely ruined after the change in 5.2 either, they are still showing up pretty strong in most of the fights in T15, only shamans are really lagging behind the rest of the pack.

IH is probably being talked about because it is so similar to DA from disc priests, which got nerfed so that disc priests weren't overpowered, the changes did not break disc priests at all. Absorb mechanics in general are just very difficult to balance since unlike a direct heal it sits on the target until they take damage for a short time of course, but unlike a direct heal, the absorb has a much longer time to be consumed as opposed to a direct heal that if it hits a target at the wrong time, its wasted. You could maybe blame fight mechanics for not dishing out enough damage for direct healers, but considering that realistically only 2/6 healer classes have absorbs... that idea seems a little flawed. I've healed Mageara on my shaman and although it was just at normal difficulty, during the first and 2nd rampages with 2 holy pallies in the raid almost no damage went out and the pallies were sitting at 100K+ hps, the other healers were about 40-50K. I know its not all about numbers but when the absorbs from IH were able to be applied to the whole raid (you can see absorb effects now with the standard UI), and doesn't let any damage through for any of the other capable healers its a little frustrating.

Again stop taking the suggestions on looking at IH because of its current state as an unreasonable attack on the class, its not like we want to break pally healers or any healers at all, just bring them more in line with the rest so we can all have a chance to shine.
Edited by Seranya on 3/13/2013 10:03 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
15250
paladins are so op right now that they deserve a nerf... while the poor shammys need a buff but this is wow and pally holys always have been the favourite of the designers, like the mages, its hard to see a nerf to them.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
7640
OMG someone defended shamans
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
15450
paladins are so op right now that they deserve a nerf... while the poor shammys need a buff but this is wow and pally holys always have been the favourite of the designers, like the mages, its hard to see a nerf to them.


This again? I wish I still have WWS logs to show you what the favorite of the designer class looked like at one time.

Also you do realize that there are almost as many disc priests as holy paladins ranking on WoL top ten normal ToT fights. Whereas before it was a wall of white. Now you actually see some yellow and green. Well, a lot of yellows, and some greens.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6120
If you stack mastery for any healing spec, the numbers are going to go up.
The only difference is that instead of overhealing and that being that, we get ours turned into a shield. Ours is more noticeable than overhealing caused by others masteries. If you think about it though, other classes can use less mana for topping people off because their heals are increased, while holy pallies can reduce some of the incoming damage for our longer casting heals. But every healer has it's place.

Shaman's mastery shines by a large margin when the party is mostly in the red. Aoes, and increased healing is good.

Druids have the ability to be the finishers, using their HoTs to top up bars and counter acting incoming damage with consistent heals.

Holy gets to heal for large numbers, and let their HoT mastery finish up the trails to help prevent overhealing too much.

Discs still get their divine aegis which makes crits shield for 100% of the healing done (effective changing it to 50% heal/50% shield), and now they get an increase to healing, as well as shielding which is nice.

Mistweavers, with the recent changes, now have exploding heal balls that can be caused on heal (their HoT's included), to heal a member when they walk through it, for for 50% as much if the time runs out. Their mastery essential gives out placement heals that require some raid awareness, but can be delayed on use, and compiled for large periods of damage.

No matter what class you take, they all have their own places in mastery, and effectiveness. The bubbles are just more noticeable because they get used before the other healers can heal, guaranteeing us healing numbers.

Just keep in mind that real raiding is totally different than LFR. In LFR, it's basically heal snatching, and in a real raid, it's working together with your group for the benefit of everyone in it in order to maximize your potential and to ensure success.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Monk
0
03/14/2013 01:38 AMPosted by Jenzee
If you stack mastery for any healing spec, the numbers are going to go up.


not sure if this is true for mistweavers even after 5.2 - stacking mastery would have to come at the cost of a better secondary stat

as for the rest of your post, not really sure what you're trying to say there - you use phrases like 'only difference is' and then go on to re-explain exactly what people are pointing out - that absorbs are better overall because they're more likely to be utilised over a greater set of circumstances and passively snipe effective healing from other classes

to sum up your post, you could just replace it with: "the only difference between mastery that provides absorbs and mastery that does heals, is that absorbs are better a lot more of the time" :)
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8505
What's with the undying love for Illuminated Healing?

What's with the hate for it? What did it ever do to you? Do you even play a paladin?



No hate at all. I was interested in the discussion and I felt there was some legitimacy to the OP beyond 'nerf Pally's'. My main was a Pally in TBC and Wrath but I haven't played one since for various reasons so I have no skin in the game and no agenda.

I think it's obvious why it's being defended so vigorously in the same way Druids defended their throughput superiority in Firelands or any class has defended a strong ability throughout the history of the game. No one likes their OP ability to be "adjusted".

It's commonly accepted that Absorbs are superior to Direct Heals so a Mastery that puts a free, guaranteed Absorb on every player healed is already going to be superior to most of the other Healing Masteries. There's nothing wrong with that at it's core since some ability always has to be best. The issue is it seems to represent such a large percentage of the healing output of most Paladins.

Worrying about Blzzard's track record in regard to numbers adjustments isn't a good argument against balance.
Edited by Zootzoot on 3/14/2013 4:23 AM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]