Mage 5.2 PVE raiding survey

MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Aye, Lissanna and I disagree on the talents (as you can see in the comments on the post she linked). And I, as it happens, asked the question in the Totemspot interview that produced the only detailed (public) response the devs have ever given on the L90 talents, including their long-term plans to change them.

More importantly:

Data collection is valuable. The devs love data. Lissanna has experience in collecting such data and presenting it in ways that the devs find useful. Derailing an effort to collect data on behalf of the class is not in your best interest.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Mage
8670
part 1:
1. Fire
2. 5 man, LFR (in 5.1), 25 normal, 25 man heroics (in 5.1), and also a bit of 10m normal in 5.1. Currently 4/12 in Throne of Thunder with a substantial amount of attempts on megaera.
3. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6pi39j0m09tp4cha/sum/damageDone/?s=4039&e=4473 (tortos kill)
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6pi39j0m09tp4cha/sum/damageDone/?s=7828&e=8125 (megaera attempt)
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rdzkhofjaj6xm1zj/sum/damageDone/?s=824&e=1404 (council of elders kill)
4. Yes i switched to fire. I was playing arcane in 5.1
5. My ilvl is slightly above average compared to other raid members

Part 2:
6. 507/508
7. Pyroblast damage feels extremely underwhelming. I almost feel like i wont be able to give up the T14 2 piece bonus because even with +8% extra pyroblast dmg it still does very little damage unless it crits and it feels very hard to build up a good ignite dot to get a decent combustion rolling. It also feels pretty RNG but i would assume the RNG will be less noticeable as i gear up and crit levels get higher (also there has always been a good amount of RNG involved with playing fire so it doesnt bother me too much).
8. The day that 5.2 launched i did several hours of testing with all 3 mage specs, fire was coming out on top for both single target and cleave damage as well as having the best movement damage. Frost was almost on par with fire but the only time it really pulled ahead was for fights with lots of adds where you could frozen orb them for almost unlimeted FoF procs. Arcane was dead last for movement, cleave, and standstill single target damage.
9. Movement damage is excellent.
10. Well it depends, for single target damage fire is not performing very well at all compared to most other dps classes (even though it seems to be the top mage dps spec from the testing ive done). For cleave damage fire is almost unbeatable but i would gladly trade some cleave damage in order to get my single target damage on par with other classes. The only time fire can keep up with other classes on single target damage is when we get an incredibly good string of RNG throughout the fight, but to be fair pretty much any class will perform well with enough good RNG.
11. There is little to no utility. The only time mages bring any utility to raids is for fights with lots of adds that can be CC'd through ring of frost. I dont mind not having any utility however, Mages should be a pure DPS class IMO there is no need for us to have utility.
12.I would like to see the nerf to pyroblast reverted. I feel like blizzard underestimated how big of a nerf that was to fire mages, because it's not only a nerf to pyroblast's direct damage, but also a very substantial nerf to both ignite and combustion (i am guesstimating here based on the kind of numbers i used to see for ignite and combustion, but i would guess that its somewhere around a 3-5% to ignite and a 7-8% nerf to combustion). Pyroblast is our number 1 damaging spell, so even if the 10% nerf only affected pyroblast that would be a pretty big nerf on its own, But ignite is usually our 3rd most damaging spell and combustion is usually tied for 4th/5th with whichever mage bomb we are using. If they are going to keep pyroblast where it is at now, maybe they could at least make it so that pyroblast applies a bigger ignite DoT than inferno blast or fireball. They could do something like "pyroblast applies an ignite DoT = to (your current mastery percentage) +10%" i.e. if your mastery was at 10% A pyroblast would leave an ignite dot equal to 20% of the damage done while a fireball would leave an ignite equal to 10% of the damage done. That way at least the nerf would only be affecting pyroblast while leaving ignite and combustion untouched for the most part.

EDIT: I would like to point out that the logs where i am at the low end of the spectrum are in no way a result of a L2P issue. I hold almost 10 top 100 rankings for fire mages. If anyone is still convinced that fire is not in need of a buff i urge them to check the log from the Tortos kill that i linked. Tortos allows for cleaving and combustion spreading pretty much throughout the whole fight, i was alive throughout the whole encounter, ranked within the top 100 (currently 54 though that is of course subject to change) and i was still at the low end of the spectrum DPS wise.
Edited by Hororscope on 3/7/2013 10:35 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Mage
5535
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Frost, been since 2/14/13. Ranked on stone Guard, Feng, Garalon, and Jin' Rokh. I like to think I play it well.
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
5-mans and 10 mans.
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
Our first Jin' Rokh kill => http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wbsd1xeumws04t9a/sum/damageDone/?enc=kills
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
Started MoP in fire then arcane/frost hybrid then fire then frost.
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?
Yes. Everyone is around 497 equipped.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel?
497 equipped with the 4-piece.
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
2 spells in my regular rotation were stolen from me. Water Freeze no longer works on bosses and scorch is gone. I had to spam ice lance while dropping my lightning fizzure on the grated area....
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
Frost was the most fun of all the specs to play.
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
Nerfed hard, scorch and water elemental's freeze are gone. I use to scorch and drop the freeze mid cast to get fingers of frost for ice lance and go back to scorch.
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
Solid but nerfed with the change to invocation and water elementals freeze. Over a 3 minute fight I lost 7 fingers of frost or 14 over a 6 minute fight. I know they increased the proc rate by 3% for frostbolt to compensate but i had the distinct feeling of playing a fire mage when I was trying to get a second FoF to time warp with 1 brain freeze and 2 FoF at the pull on Horridon.
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
Same, still have time warp and mage table.
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
Give me freeze back on raid bosses. If I got 2 give me scorch back. Call it "Frorch" with a blue animation for all I care.

My 2 cents:
Its just sad. Most people won't realize frost got nerfed along with fire and arcane because they never raided with it in 5.1. It makes me not want to log into this toon. I could just play my mistweaver until they nerf the chi proc on SM and CJL by 5-10%. But alas I raid with real life friends and my dps is still a large part of our progression team. I am starting to lose faith in blizzard. Thank you for the forum Lissanna.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Mage
7355
Aye, Lissanna and I disagree on the talents (as you can see in the comments on the post she linked). And I, as it happens, asked the question in the Totemspot interview that produced the only detailed (public) response the devs have ever given on the L90 talents, including their long-term plans to change them.

More importantly:

Data collection is valuable. The devs love data. Lissanna has experience in collecting such data and presenting it in ways that the devs find useful. Derailing an effort to collect data on behalf of the class is not in your best interest.


I've read your question, and it was both leading and lacking. His response to you made it obvious that he knows tons of people hate it. Your question made it seem like it might only be a forum problem.

Want to talk about the class' best interest? It definitely isn't having someone speak for the class who disagrees with 95% of the class on a vitale subject such as level 90 mage talents.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
12195
Part 1:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
- Frost

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
- 10N Progression, 16/16 10H 5.1

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
- Tuesday: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-0xppdjud1swiwd8p/
- Wednesday: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7a9lb1cejqsa1w5h/

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
- Yes, switched to Frost from Arcane

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?
- We are an equally geared heroic 10 man raiding guild

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel?
- 511 with 5.2 upgrades

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
- Major ToT bugs: 1) Orb goes backwards on Magaera when cast, and 2) Elemental seems to sometimes despawn when using Alter Time on Durumu
- Frostbolt debuff in PvE is heavy penalty when Frost has so many instant procs to use up asap, on top of boss movement mechanics, and finally on top of target switching.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
- My personal spec testing on PTR showed me in the gear I had available, it was the most performing after all the mage changes

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
- OK when you have Orb going, very low when you have no procs (non-skill based, pure luck)

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
- Above average

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
- Deep Freeze and pet Freeze on some adds is useful, but that's about it.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
- Orb should apply frostbolt debuff to everything it hits, or move debuff to player like arcane charge.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
9235
deleted due to off topic - thanks
Edited by Aicee on 3/7/2013 2:08 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
9535
Thread is full of usefull data, thanks to the MVPs for putting this together, fingers crossed Bliz Devs will crank the change.

Remember guys, this isn't a spec vs spec argument, just data collection.
Reply Quote
First of all, thank you very much for compiling data and I'm sorry if some people are being hostile toward it. Data is always a good thing even if it is just to confirm what you already know. That thing that everyone knows with data to back it up is much more powerful than that thing that everyone just knows.

I'm waiting until the raid week is out to fill out the form so that I'll have a little more data, but this:

The data thus far is suggesting that on the early bosses of the new raid dungeon, frost is actually staying relatively close to the other classes in our raids overall, and isn't miles ahead of other raid members. Instead, people have been switching from arcane because it was too far behind the other members of their raid, or lacked the tools necessary to deal with encounter-specific mechanics. That's really valuable data to have.


matches my observations so far. However, I did want to highlight the concern that this gives me: Frost is already nearing both the haste and crit caps making it very dangerous as our leading spec.

No doubt fire will over take it due to CM scaling, but I'm particularly nervous, given the non-linear scaling of fire, that if it is starting from behind and catching up to the front within one tier of gear that the devs will feel forced to nerf fire's crit scaling again later in the tier. This makes gear investment very uncertain, and puts the strategy of starting frost and growing into fire into serious doubt.

(Arcane has even deeper problems, even if scaling may help rescue it as well over time, largely due to the fact that arcane's flavor among the specs has generally been strong single target burst and Blizzard has gone out of their way to show that they do not want that to be a niche occupied by any spec as they don't want to let one spec far outshine the others on patchwerk dps. But they haven't given arcane any new benefit to counter the loss of standstill on demand single target throughput.)

I'll write up my full survey response with further observations when I have more logs.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
9535


In my defense, I did actually write a whole blog post on my blog called "Why I hate the level 90 mage talents" and have been actively fighting against them. http://www.restokin.com/2013/01/why-i-hate-the-level-90-mage-talents/

In response to the person asking about my mage's spec: This thread wasn't titled the 5.2 Arcane survey. Instead, the majority of logs people have posted are frost & fire. I really do want data for all 3 specs, but I thought it was only fair if I showed you my data. To be able to balance the three raid specs, it requires data from all 3 raid specs - so we can demonstrate whether or not the rerolling comes from arcane being weak or frost being strong relative to other classes. The data Blizzard gets from their number logs doesn't measure motivations of people doing the switching.

The data thus far is suggesting that on the early bosses of the new raid dungeon, frost is actually staying relatively close to the other classes in our raids overall, and isn't miles ahead of other raid members. Instead, people have been switching from arcane because it was too far behind the other members of their raid, or lacked the tools necessary to deal with encounter-specific mechanics. That's really valuable data to have.


i honestly don't care what the thread is titled. frost is the only viable dps spec now and everyone knows this. everyone is complaining about arcane and some about fire sucking. why raid as the only viable dps spec and post the info to it when thats irrelevant to the current situation and problems.

in my defense, the thread wasnt titled 5.2 frost mage survey either...

you want data, respec to fire or arcane, the two with problems and go raid then. not raid as the only spec thats not boogered.

the majority of the logs are fire and frost, you are correct there. wonder WHY? cause blizz broke arcane.

as a druid mvp with a mage class alt and responding to mage forum of people complaining of the mage class, you raid as the only viable spec and won't try arcane?

you ask for data, respec arcane and get your data.

"their data doesn't measure motivations?" - they should try browsing forum posts from their customer base if they're too lazy to play a 5.2 arcane mage for 3 minutes.

"valuable data to have?" - so is hands on experience, once again, they should play a arcane mage for 3 minutes and have valuable hands on data...


Wow, this derailed fast.

Lets see...what would Bliz see as more valuable.... 1 MVP doing tests as all three specs or potentially hundreds of people posting their logs on several different fights with different raid compositions using different combos of spec/glyph.

Don't make this a "Bliz should see its broke and fix it on their own" fight, if you don't want to provide data....dont. However don't bash the people actually contributing towards a potential resolution.

Either sugest a better method of fixing the obvious issues with Mages as they stand now or shut up and get out of the way?
Edited by Shattermage on 3/7/2013 11:57 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Undead Mage
7015
I've only skimmed over the complaining but I really don't see how a MVP or anyone willing to help to this extent is a bad thing.

All she is doing is trying to help.
Reply Quote
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Thread is full of usefull data, thanks to the MVPs for putting this together, fingers crossed Bliz Devs will crank the change.

Remember guys, this isn't a spec vs spec argument, just data collection.


This is all Lissanna, and she has my gratitude.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
Aicee, at least go complain about them in a different thread. Please.
Edited by Taymage on 3/7/2013 12:04 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
10800
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Frost

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
I've run a few five mans, done dailies in a small group, run LFR, and 1 10n so far

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-q9hxwbwy4rmnffuz/
^ Link to guild 10 man on Tuesday. We killed the Jin'rokh then went to HoF due to a missing member.

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
I did, I went from Arcane to Frost. I had toyed with all the specs prior to this though.

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?

My Ilvl should be roughly the same as everyone elses in the group.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

Terrified.

6) What is your average ilevel?
488
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
In general I find frost to be kind of boring. There aren't a ton of decisions to make with the spec in regards to what to do. If something procs, use it. If no procs are up, spam frostbolt.
That's not exactly incredibly fun gameplay. Additionally on multi target fights we're going to suffer a good deal cause we have to stack up our fb 3 times before we're going full tilt on our damage.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
I changed from arcane to frost in 5.2 for the same reason I changed from fire to arcane in 5.1. Blizzard came along and was a bit heavy handed in their adjustments and made one spec clearly better than the alternatives. As a dps raider, I feel its my jobs to break things and break them hard. So naturally I want to take the spec that is going to perform the best at my current Ilvl.

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
Compared to other classes? Not so hot. Movement isn't horrible for frost mages, blink and blazing speed help a great deal with covering distance. But if you've got no FoF or brainfreeze procs up, all you can do is spam ice lance, which does pitiful damage. I'd really like to see something like KJC for mages. Ice Floes is an option, but it's not always available and when it is, it just feels clunky to me.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
Mediocre. It's not horrible but as someone who is supposed to bring big damage, its really no where near where it should be. (Earlier when I glanced at raidbots 10n info, mages had 3 of the 5 bottom slots. As a pure dps class, it seems to me that at least one of my specs should be competitive in terms of damage.) I'm preparing to reroll because of it, I don't want to fee like I'm a burden to my guild.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
Mages really have no unique or special utility. Sure we have time warp, but so do shamans and hunters have access to it as well. The same can be said of arcane intellect (but with warlocks, and hunters and druids) We can make tables but that hardly qualifies as progression type utility. I'd really like to see us get something cool and unique. Maybe allow us to give mana / energy gems to the whole raid instead of just ourselves (like lock rocks). Perhaps a raid wide temporal shield?

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
Honestly I'm not a huge fan of frost. Nothing out the spec really stands out to me other than its survivability. I'm a much larger fan of fire, I would like to see fire be made less dependent on gear, and have the ignite mechanics adjusted..
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
9535
Aicee, at least go complain about them in a different thread. Please.


This

Aicee you need to learn to read, you didn't comprehend my response at all. One person testing all three specs with every possible spec/glyph combo is NOTHING when compared to the amount of data this community can provide from logs and personal perspective.

And with that I'm done feeding the attention seeking, whining, annoying trolls :)
Edited by Shattermage on 3/7/2013 12:41 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Mage
11545
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?

Fire
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?

25-man raid, solo. Will break into 10-mans this weekend probably
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):

Don't see the point as the devs themselves have said that the logs don't matter, but http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xc2ssccf69wve4ig/sum/damageDone/
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?

Yes, was arcane. Also was fire before they nerfed it in 5.1. Prefer to be fire
03/06/2013 09:25 AMPosted by Lissanna
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted?

Yup, the entirety of the guild is pretty well the same ilevel.
6) What is your average ilevel?

497
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?

For fire specifically, AOE damage is atrocious. The spreading nerf really hurt the part where fire was supposed to outshine the other specs.
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?

I prefer the fire playstyle, always have. Only changed out of it because of the crippling it took during the last patch.
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?

Absolutely fine with this
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?

Not so great. That Pyroblast nerf really hurt. So much of fire's damage is all interconnected so a nerf of just one component ends up being a chain reaction nerf across the board. A nerf to your top damage spell ends up nerfing both your 2nd and 3rd damage abilities (Ignite and Combustion).
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?

What utility? The only thing that can be construed as utility is Time Warp which is provided by two other classes. This is the main problem with the class, the absolute only thing we bring to the table is the ability to do damage. Anytime we excel at our only function, we are nerfed to compensate for PvP. We no longer have a unique identity.
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?

Revert the pyro and spread nerfs. However, since those nerfs (like all of them) were done to appease PvP sensibilities, I don't see that as feasibly happening.
Reply Quote
98 Worgen Mage
17975
Thanks for this thread. Surveys work. I did one with Mage glyphs back in the 5.1 PTR, and it seems they followed up with a lot of those suggestions in 5.2.
Reply Quote
Here is all the raid survey you actually need, two days of ToT:

All 3 mage specs are dead last:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/default/
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]