Mage 5.2 PVE raiding survey

100 Troll Mage
11500
Wow Spells, that about sums it up.

Too bad Bliz doesn't pay attention to raidbots, its good data if taken in context.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14895
Wow Spells, that about sums it up.

Too bad Bliz doesn't pay attention to raidbots, its good data if taken in context.


Blizzard actually has better internal tools that they don't share with us. It's not that Blizzard needs WOL reports (or a site that collects and averages WOL reports). It's the other questions on the survey that provide the real meat of what I'm collecting. Raidbot data tends to not be convincing because it doesn't capture human motivations, enjoyment, and what about the class is really bugging people. What really helps is a convergence of evidence from the community containing high-quality feedback from multiple sources.

For example, a flat 10% buff to arcane would make the numbers look better on training dummies, but this survey is already suggesting that a flat single-target buff to the arcane spec is unlikely to make it any more viable for the types of encounters in the new 5.2 raid dungeon that arcane is struggling on the most. There are a dozen other things that may have a greater impact by making arcane both effective and enjoyable. It is likely that scorch-weaving was covering up for some bigger problem for the arcane spec that also wasn't really visible on beta when arcane's output was still tuned too high. If I can provide a specific list of suggestions that people in this thread have proposed for fixing arcane, that's way more helpful than me posting a link to raidbots on the MVP forum. :)
Edited by Lissanna on 3/7/2013 1:42 PM PST
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41 Troll Warrior
6685
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) Arcane
2) 5mans, 10N MSV/HOF, LFR
3) ...
4) No
5) ilvl within 5 of most in my raid group

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 484
7) ROP is still not fun to use - especially on fights like Elegon p3 where there is lots of lag and placing the reticule is really difficult.
8) -
9) I couldn't care less about movement damage. I understand the concept of a turret. But having to place a cast time ROP is far more troublesome than it should be.
10) Stand still damage is too low.
11) Not enough utility to justify major damage nerfs.
12) Make ROP instant cast OR get rid of the reticule.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Yeah - Blizzard actually prefers individual logs to aggregators. They can aggregate like nobody's business without any help from us. But point them to a specific log with a specific complaint or comment about it, and they can dive in deep and see if the complaint is justified.
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90 Undead Mage
7015
I have a question that arose last night.

On the big bug boss in the first half of HoF there are rings around the legs of the bug and you supposedly get a damage buff if you stay in those rings and dps that leg.

How is an arcane mage suppose to keep up with that when the boss is constantly moving?

Also, just to reinterate...a lof of these fights have lots of movement. Melee is justing sitting there where range or specs that have to take the time to cast spells have to regroup and then start casting again.

Like in the video I linked. I was suppose to stay on the steps so the tornados would not crowd the area of the fight but had to regroup everytime the attack came. Then go back to the steps and start casting again....and don't forget I have to cast RoP. All the while melee has to do nothing.

The only fight I can think of that is favored like this for range vs melee is the dogs.
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100 Troll Mage
11500
Yeah - Blizzard actually prefers individual logs to aggregators. They can aggregate like nobody's business without any help from us. But point them to a specific log with a specific complaint or comment about it, and they can dive in deep and see if the complaint is justified.


Blizzard needs a new moto!!

"Blizzard, aggregating like nobody's business since 1991"

Seriously though, I understand they have better tools to pull numbers from than raidbots, just frustrated that it still comes down to so much trial and error post patch. I'm a network engineer, I understand that some things are just crazy complex (x number of classes, x number of specs, x number of spells, etc) and that balancing pve without killing pve or the other way around...just seems like more QA could take place before release. I digress...

You gotta admit the visual of Spell's raidbot link was striking and speaks for itself though.

Thanks again for putting this thread together, hope it helps.
Edited by Shattermage on 3/7/2013 2:19 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10685
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?

Arcane.

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?

None, yet.

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):

None.

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?

No change.

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?

No info.

6) What is your average ilevel?

485

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?

Mana is drained quickly, unable to maintain stacks for very long, missiles don't proc very often.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?

N/A

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?

Poor. Living Bomb and Ice Lance are the best I got. No more scorch means no more decent movement damage.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?

Okay.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?

I'm not seeing promise.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be? [/quote]

Better mana regeneration.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
12485
03/07/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Lissanna
Raidbot data tends to not be convincing because it doesn't capture human motivations, enjoyment, and what about the class is really bugging people.


I feel like this is where the disconnect between the devs and the mage community is. They got a little too focused on numbers and forgot about what was fun.

They made that abundantly clear with what they did to arcane...
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100 Blood Elf Mage
12485
How is an arcane mage suppose to keep up with that when the boss is constantly moving?


With incanter's ward.

One of the only fights where IW is the best choice.

In 5.1 anyway, arcane wouldn't work very well on garalon now without scorch.
Edited by Kaikou on 3/7/2013 3:04 PM PST
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100 Gnome Mage
14820
1. I have been arcane since the start of MoP (although it was initially pretty bad), but 5.2 has made arcane basically unplayable. My dps went down at least 20K. So I am currently frost, which is actually my true love. I have never liked fire.
2. I have run everything from 40 mans to LFR, currently we raid as 10 man, got Jin'rokh down on our first night of attempts last night.
3. I don't have raid logs, although I know someone in the guild has them (our raid leader, who is also the author of NeedtoKnow addon.
4. As above, was arcane, am now frost. Depressing to go from #1 or #2 on the meters to #4 or even #5, but part of that may be getting used to a new spec and a new UI.
5. Most of us have a pretty similar gear level.
6. 499 at the moment.
7. I hate blizzard's current philosophy of ranged having limited movement.
8. To attempt to do competitive dps.
9. SUCKS
10. Not terrible, but not as good as I was in 5.1 as arcane!
11. Well, they have to take me, I am the GM. And my dps doesn't totally suck, but I feel I should do more than 80K.
12. More dps!
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?

A: Fire.

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?

A: 25 man. About 9/12 atm, looking to finish 12/12 either today or sunday. US 7th.

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):

A: I sent you a friend request Lissaanna and can get you access to our private logs and a lot of other top end guild private logs (we mages network ) My tag is lucent#1867

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?

A: I played fire in 5.0. Fire and Arcane in 5.1.

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?

A: Yes. 513 (Actually higher than most).

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?
6) What is your average ilevel?

A: 513
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?

Answer about all 3 of our specializations:

Arcane: Provides NO utility to the raid...whatsoever. No tool-set that allows for movement. The only thing it had going for it was the incredible damage.... and its gone. So eliminate this spec.

Frost: Does not scale as well. With eliminated freeze, the rotation is more basic than arcane. No utility. I cant even root things from a distance anymore. Most things are immune to RoF. Will never be viable in end raiding due to pvp. Cant scale well or pvp will break.

Fire: No utility. best of the 3 specs, but bottom of the charts. Only benefit is we can move....

Affliction warlocks were arguably better than arcane last tier. Not only do they retain their number 1 position, they also had demo boosted to the number 3rd dps spec. Not to mention their utility with Battle Resurrection and warlock cookies and portals.

Their talent also lets them move while casting in all 3 specs..... Flabbergasted.
Why am I bothering to play a mage in PVE?

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?

A: Most damage output.

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?

A: Fire is weak, but the best of all 3 mage specs.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?

A: Weak, but the best of all 3 mage specs.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?

A: As explained above, we provide no utility whatsoever.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?

A: Its too late in the expansion to change our 90 talents or provide a ton of utility. Our best bet would be to increase our damage to make us valuable enough to bring to raids.
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90 Troll Mage
11580
03/07/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Lissanna
lizzard actually has better internal tools that they don't share with us. It's not that Blizzard needs WOL reports (or a site that collects and averages WOL reports). It's the other questions on the survey that provide the real meat of what I'm collecting. Raidbot data tends to not be convincing because it doesn't capture human motivations, enjoyment, and what about the class is really bugging people. What really helps is a convergence of evidence from the community containing high-quality feedback from multiple sources.


if this was the case then who was sleeping on the job? dismissing wol for their better tools didnt prepare them for this. dont get me wrong this is not a qq post and i will be posting my logs later but better does not equal results when u see a pure dps spec that offers noithing outside other classes having all 3 specs performing at the lowest numbers.
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90 Troll Mage
15160
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Fire

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
5 Man Heroics , 25m Normal 5/12 currently

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6pqyyggdp9fmd4o0/sum/damageDone/

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? Arcane Mastery Stacking

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? 505 currently others a little higher than my mage above me is 510 I would say we all are geared equally to some extent.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage? I feel my mage is doing less damage by over 20k than when I raided in 5.1 I feel that mages have no use in raid this being my main for 5 years I am scared of being sat till our dps is buffed. Our aoe damage is garbage our single target damage is garbage.

6) What is your average ilevel? 504

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization? Lack of DPS. Lack of Raid Ultility, Lack of AOE DPS

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change? I changed cause they ruined Arcane and made it completely unplayable in a raid enviorment

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage? Its garbage, if I wanted to move and cast spells I would of been a warlock

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? Its extremely low compared to 5.1 and I feel that a 496 geared shadow priest should not be beating me with my current gear.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? Its worthless

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be? I would give back the ability to spread living bomb, I would undo the 10% nerf to pyroblast and I would increase our crit multiplier to 1.5.

They have completely ruined the mage spec. You will not see any mages even top of the meter let alone in the middle. My guild runs 4 mages and we are all geared about the same and extremely good players. Unfortunatley with the current state of mages I don't see how we are benefiting our guild in progression.

On top of that Blizzard has forced some mages to reroll. This was my first toon I ever created in 2007 and its been my main since. If I have to reroll I will quit the game. Fix our class and stop trying to make excuses your balancing us. Cause obviously if you were balancing us you wouldn't nerf us to where we are literally the bottom dps under tanks now.
Edited by Hátos on 3/7/2013 5:28 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Mage
12985
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Fire
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)? 10 normal and 5-mans
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6e2e5e26vzp61d7s/details/4/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/tthzxmkoz8khxqlc/details/23/

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? No, played fire through the nerfs in 5.1

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? Its right about the same

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel? 512
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization? the level 90 talents are clunky, not fun, and a real burden in heavy movement fights. The Living bomb nerf was awful and took away fire's identity as a cleave spec. AoE is non-existent, no one wants to cast Arcane Explosions.
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change? N/A
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage? Its not the greatest, but ok.
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? Too low, the nerf to pyroblast is crushing. Its impossible to have high enough crit at this point to stay competitive with my raid teammates who I used to go toe to toe with for the top of the meters.
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? We bring nothing special, except time warp, which shamans also have. We are squishy as compared to other classes with their passive mitigation and defesnive cooldowns but gain no damage to compensate.
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be? More damage, restore Living bomb to spreading via inferno blast, give us a chance to compete for top numbers with my peers.
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90 Goblin Mage
10415
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) Frost (fire @ i520)
2) 10man normal
3) no recent ones :(
4) was fire on release then forced to go frost, 5.2 was looking good for fire again... but nup.
5) similar ~500

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 503
7) Target switching and restacking frost debuff heavily affects dps. esp with all the target switching in ToT. heavy movement fights also now affecting dps with the removal of scorch and changes to pet freeze.
8) na
9) not great, but short cast time on FrB makes it not too bad
10) pretty good
11) bad. mages bring nothing to the raid (except timewarp). some of the trash in ToT requires cc which i enjoy that we dont just aoe spank trash anymore.
12) Change the FrB debuff so it only the slow stacks up and add the damage straight to FrB and IL. or just one stack even.
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90 Gnome Mage
12555
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Frost

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
10 man normal.

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
None available.

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
No did not change specs.

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?
My iLevel is around the same as my peers.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?
6) What is your average ilevel?
492 (haven't grabbed my 522 neck yet).

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
Frost raiding requires you to keep a running mental list of what trash/adds Freeze can be used on for the purposes of FoF generation. Raiding as Frost you must now swap your rotation around from fight to fight depending on whether Freeze will be viable or not.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
N/A.

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
I've only done one raid and it seemed fine apart from unpredictable Freeze interaction.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
It's always felt lower than all of my similarly geared guild mates.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
I've never felt mages bring any noticable utility to a raid. Our food and portals aren't used and most of the time our CC can't be used but that's fine, I rolled mage to blast things in the face with glowing pixels.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
Fix un-predictable Freeze interaction.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14895
I got through compiling the first 15 survey responses and sent off preliminary data/findings/suggestions. I'll get through more this weekend.

My initial feedback compilation highlighted:
A general lack of multi-target AOE damage across the specs, multiple problems with arcane, frost's gear scaling issues, and additional notes about fire problems at lower gear levels.

keep posting more feedback!
Edited by Lissanna on 3/7/2013 8:39 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Lissanna, can you explain why GC just tweeted, on the very day the non-internal logs show all three mages specs *literally* the bottom three specs, that he was "happy" with mage performance? Can you ask him why he would say something like that?
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90 Troll Mage
11580
Taymage
90 Blood Elf Mage
Wreck List
14015

Lissanna, can you explain why GC just tweeted, on the very day the non-internal logs show all three mages specs *literally* the bottom three specs, that he was "happy" with mage performance? Can you ask him why he would say something like that?


i am also curious to this
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