MW as DPS

82 Pandaren Monk
4400
To start off, I know that even the best geared/played MW will fall short of a similarly geared and played actual DPS class.

But how short?

I see people on these forums citing DPS numbers anywhere from 40% to 75% of an actual DPS class (and sometimes higher when talking about healing random 5 man instances and LFR).

However, that's usually with a MW geared for healing (spirit til comfortable with mana>haste til an extra tick of RM>Int>Crit>more haste) as well as having chosen talents with healing as a primary concern.

But what about if you were only concerned about DPS? What numbers do you think a MW can reach?

How would a DPS oriented MW gear differently?

Stack int/crit over spirit? Ignore haste? Staff or 1H/off-hand?

What talents would they choose? Chi Wave over Chi Burst?

All the guides out there that compare talents and itemization for mistweavers assume that the goal is optimized healing, so they aren't much help.
Edited by Sethric on 3/6/2013 10:16 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
11830
I am currently sitting around 496 ilevel in my pve MW set. I pull ~60k dps single target in my current gear. If you were looking to purely maximize your dps, with no regard for healing, you could probably do *maybe* 75% of a regular dps. Your entire rotation would consist of Jab-> TP (no BoK for Serpent's Zeal, only for cleave dmg).
You would use Ascension for the extra mana returns (we don't care about extra chi, they do nothing, since you arent using BoK). You would gear spirit until you were capped on expertise/hit (maybe higher if you are running oom).
Glyphs would be Spinning Crane Kick, Mana Tea, and one other of your choice.
Chi Wave would definitely be the best T30 talent, unless you are expecting large amounts of aoe (Chi Burst hits upwards of 130k crits for me on enemies now).
For other stats, int and crit would definitely be the best stats. Haste would be essentially worthless due to our 1sec GCD, so you're looking at pieces that are int/sta/spi + crit and no other stat. Mastery should, of course, be avoided at all costs.
You would want trinkets that provide int, and some sort of crit proc (or visa versa). Worst case scenario, take a static spirit trinket (no procs), and base your hit/exp around it, with some sort of crit or int procs.

Umm, yup, thats about all I can think of atm.
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82 Pandaren Monk
4400
Hmm...I could've sworn that BoK did more damage than two TPs, especially when considering more than one target. With Expel Harm, Surging Mist (with Vital Mists), and Spinning Crane Kick to provide the extra chi, it shouldn't be too hard on the mana either to weave it in.

Also, Power Strikes rather than Ascension at level 45 seems like a natural fit for a DPS centric build, with an extra Chi every 20 seconds to fit in that BoK regardless of whether or not there are multiple targets.

Your comments on gearing seems to back up my instincts, but I still have no idea whether a staff, polearm or 1H+OH is the way to go. We get 70% more white damage, but I have no idea if that's good enough. The last seems the way to get the most stats though. Still no idea what percentage white damage contributes to overall MW DPS.
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100 Night Elf Monk
10645
With the new changes, blackout kick barely does more damage than one tiger palm. It's not worth using except in AoE situations or to keep up the buff, regardless of whether you're going for DPS or healing. Ascension is probably worth taking just for more mana. You won't need the extra chi.

I don't think a "DPS mistweaver" would be as different from a regular one as you might thing. Sure, you could squeak out a bit more damage by statting differently, but you're basically just going to be a mistweaver that exclusively heals through eminence.

I think you'll find the damage rotation dreadfully boring though. It really is just jab > tiger palm over and over again, with chi wave on cooldown.
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I think you'll find the damage rotation dreadfully boring though. It really is just jab > tiger palm over and over again, with chi wave on cooldown.


That sounds awfully similar to the holy priest dps rotation in chakra: chastise.
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82 Pandaren Monk
4400
Sure, you could squeak out a bit more damage by statting differently, but you're basically just going to be a mistweaver that exclusively heals through eminence.


Surely shifting haste itemization to crit/int would make some difference, more than a "squeak"?

3145 of haste rating (first soft cap) itemization going towards Int/Crit instead and considering Leather Specialization and our int buff, that's quite a bit of attack power and crit which affects all damage abilities as well as mana tea gain (crit).
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82 Pandaren Monk
4400

I think you'll find the damage rotation dreadfully boring though. It really is just jab > tiger palm over and over again, with chi wave on cooldown.


That sounds awfully similar to the holy priest dps rotation in chakra: chastise.


I was thinking of something similar, but for disc priests (smite/penance/holy fire).
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100 Night Elf Monk
10645
I think even holy has more buttons to push. Smite, holy fire/solace, shadow word: pain, mindbender/shadowfiend, cascade/divine star/halo, and shadow word: death.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
To start off, I know that even the best geared/played MW will fall short of a similarly geared and played actual DPS class.


Dude. You're lvl 40 something. Congratulations. How ever you can't reforge yet, and even if you could, would you really want to throw your mistweaver's healing all out of balance to achieve higher dps ? Plus I can't remember what lvl it is when fistweaving is supposed to start being major part of your healing, that is itself will improve your dps in dgns. But I wouldn't even worry about it until you get to Hellfire Ramparts.
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82 Pandaren Monk
4400
Dude. I know I'm only 40 something. That doesn't mean I can't start a conversation on a topic that I haven't seen discussed much. I've read the theories and strats on how to play a MW on various boards and sites.

However, the questions I'm asking have not been asked yet.

Also, I think most people will agree with me when I say that leveling is way too easy now that how you spec doesn't really matter. Half the time I que for dungeons right now, I get relegated to a DPS spot rather than a healer spot (guess lots of people leveling healers).
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82 Pandaren Monk
4400
I think even holy has more buttons to push. Smite, holy fire/solace, shadow word: pain, mindbender/shadowfiend, cascade/divine star/halo, and shadow word: death.


We have other tools as well. Chi Wave/Chi Burst and Expel Harm on cooldown. Xuen for burst. Touch of Death adds a surprising amount of damage to overall DPS. Spinning Crane Kick for multiple targets.

Not as robust a selection as a real DPS class, but it seems plenty enough to liven that Jab/TP rotation.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12410
Also, 5 TPs = free surging mist which generates a free chi.

Even if you just burn it on yourself, it's one more chi you didn't pay any mana for.
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This has me wonder if my qeusting spec should be my heal spec now instead of my tank spec...

If MW is about 50-75% of WW dps, how does it compare to BM (on trash world mobs, not bosses - while MW can tank up to about level 81.. after that dungeon bosses can actually do more than 1 DPS ;-) ).

I've always kept my heal spec in reserve and used the tank spec for soloing, is it time to flip that thinking (like I did with my priests, neither of which has had shadow spec since wrath barring one short test).
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03/07/2013 04:18 AMPosted by Zenfoo
To start off, I know that even the best geared/played MW will fall short of a similarly geared and played actual DPS class.


Dude. You're lvl 40 something. Congratulations. How ever you can't reforge yet, and even if you could, would you really want to throw your mistweaver's healing all out of balance to achieve higher dps ? Plus I can't remember what lvl it is when fistweaving is supposed to start being major part of your healing, that is itself will improve your dps in dgns. But I wouldn't even worry about it until you get to Hellfire Ramparts.


Hellfire = Best Instance ever,

short sweet and all the mobs are close by and in large groups :D
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
Dude. I know I'm only 40 something. That doesn't mean I can't start a conversation on a topic that I haven't seen discussed much. I've read the theories and strats on how to play a MW on various boards and sites.

However, the questions I'm asking have not been asked yet.

Also, I think most people will agree with me when I say that leveling is way too easy now that how you spec doesn't really matter. Half the time I que for dungeons right now, I get relegated to a DPS spot rather than a healer spot (guess lots of people leveling healers).


Now you're just posting to get attention. "Trolling" Windwalker is the dps spec. Stop trying to turn the MW into something it's not. By the way, Had your Ritalin today ?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8505
This has me wonder if my qeusting spec should be my heal spec now instead of my tank spec...

If MW is about 50-75% of WW dps, how does it compare to BM (on trash world mobs, not bosses - while MW can tank up to about level 81.. after that dungeon bosses can actually do more than 1 DPS ;-) ).

I've always kept my heal spec in reserve and used the tank spec for soloing, is it time to flip that thinking (like I did with my priests, neither of which has had shadow spec since wrath barring one short test).


I still think Brewmaster is better. As long as you pull as many mobs as you're comfortable with it's faster than speccing pure DPS. IMO.
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82 Pandaren Monk
4400

Now you're just posting to get attention. "Trolling" Windwalker is the dps spec. Stop trying to turn the MW into something it's not. By the way, Had your Ritalin today ?


I don't think you know the definition of a Troll if you're using it to apply to this thread.

As for my tone, if you check, I'm only responding in kind to the tone and language you used in your post.

Also, I'm not trying to turn MW into anything.

I'm simply asking what sort of numbers we can expect to see if MW is geared/specced towards DPS rather than Healing using the tools we already have. I'm not asking for anything new. I personally expect those numbers to be below a similarly geared/specced DPS class played by an equally skilled player.

But the question remains, if a Mistweaver in healing spec/gear can already pull 50% to 75% of DPS in an instance/LFR, then how much higher can it get if specced/geared strictly for DPS? A corollary to that question is how would that then impact healing, but that wasn't the question I was asking.

There are lots of reasons why someone might want to use MW as a DPS:
1) still leveling and don't want to bother collecting two seats of gear
2) eminence is sufficient to keep up healing in random 5 man instances
3) not doing DPS, even when signed up as heals is boring
4) for the challenge of it
5) because you can

Nothing in this post is forcing anyone to do something they don't want to. You can disagree with the premise or the responses, but not about the right to ask the questions in the first place.
Edited by Sethric on 3/7/2013 11:57 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Monk
10645
03/07/2013 04:18 AMPosted by Zenfoo
I can't remember what lvl it is when fistweaving is supposed to start being major part of your healing


Level 10.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
Dude. You're lvl 40 something. Congratulations. How ever you can't reforge yet, and even if you could, would you really want to throw your mistweaver's healing all out of balance to achieve higher dps ? Plus I can't remember what lvl it is when fistweaving is supposed to start being major part of your healing, that is itself will improve your dps in dgns. But I wouldn't even worry about it until you get to Hellfire Ramparts.


This was my original post. it was in no way trying to be rude, but was really wondering why anyone would want to stat it so differently.Yes I agree carrying two sets of gear is or would be a pain in the butt. I even made a thread of that very subject just recently. Yes I agree that questing in mistweaver spec is a much harder to do, and takes much longer to kill anything. Then the Tiger stance being practically useless doesn't make it any easier.

Now, I noticed a HUGE difference in dps while questing after 5.2 arrived. I truly wouldn't stat differently. What I do hope is that Blizz will make Tiger stance a viable dps stance instead of it decreasing damage dealt, or for mistweavers reduce the cooldown on touch of death.

I just now got this monk of mine, doing top heals in instances. No way would I re stat it to a dps within mistweaver spec.

But at lvl 90 in better gear you will notice much better dps.
Edited by Zenfoo on 3/7/2013 4:13 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
4605
Also, 5 TPs = free surging mist which generates a free chi.

Even if you just burn it on yourself, it's one more chi you didn't pay any mana for.


^
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