Let me stomp my feet and get this out...

90 Undead Monk
13235
I am Sorry you two, but Hobbes-sist VS aulturism Philosophical debate is terribly hard to take seriously when the term Dickbag is thrown around so much.

Sardonic undertones are fine, but FFS if your going to talk about Fundamentals of the human condition please, PLEASE use some more evolved terminology. Makes me feel like Im in friggen high school again.

ok fine

instead of dickbags we will now use the term "social darwinists"
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90 Gnome Priest
17670
Or we can just put it to rest because its doubtlful we'll be agreeing here.

Don't know why you're getting 404s - I got those from google, viewed the pages myself then copied the links but oh well.

Hope everyone is getting their Galleon kills stress free now.
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90 Undead Monk
13235
03/09/2013 12:10 AMPosted by Joynal
Don't know why you're getting 404s - I got those from google, viewed the pages myself then copied the links but oh well.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/22/the-wow-factor-page-2/

shows up. but when you check the source of, say, the first question, you get this:

http://blogs.parc.com/playon/2010/07/23/overview-of-participants/

im not going to take a joystiq article at face value without checking its sources.

but you know what?

maybe you're right. maybe the average world of warcraft player is a 30 year old man who only gathers and doesn't raid or pvp. maybe that's who plays world of warcraft now. and maybe you're right: blizzard should divorce itself from its competitive atmosphere because the majority doesn't participate in it because they're casual old !@#$s.

edit: i would be interested in seeing the average age of players who actually play instead of sticking to solo content.
Edited by Kerrath on 3/9/2013 12:35 AM PST
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90 Gnome Priest
17670
I agree it would be interesting but even Blizzard might not have that sort of demographic info handy. And I suspect that the solo content would be just as likely to be getting played by the console generation who are used to playing alone instead of cooperating in a group while older players who are used to working in team environments and know rewards are best earned not given out like candy for no effort remain in group content.

Raiders over 25 aren't that rare, Kerrath, though the more hardcore raiders tend to be younger. I'll give you that. I see comments in the forums all the time from people saying things like "I used to raid hardcore in Vanilla and BC but don't now that I have a job and family. I raid with a casual group (or LFR) instead."

I would imagine PvPers fall heavily on the younger side. But since I pretty much ignore PvP content, I really don't know and it's just pure guess on my part.

That could be a larger part of what is really giving us different impressions with you on a PvP server and me on a quasi-RP PVE server. RP isn't cool, so the younger crowd avoids it for the most part. Being on a PvP server and killing other players is cool so the younger people flock there. The realm types tend to polarize the demographics. Normal PvE servers would probably better reflect the general population but neither of us are playing on one.

But I still think that part of why you feel its younger is because the younger players are more vocal and "in your face" while older players generally aren't out there drawing attention to themselves. They simply play so you don't notice them.
Edited by Joynal on 3/9/2013 12:24 PM PST
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90 Undead Monk
13235
03/09/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Joynal
I agree it would be interesting but even Blizzard might not have that sort of demographic info handy. And I suspect that the solo content would be just as likely to be getting played by the console generation who are used to playing alone instead of cooperating in a group while older players who are used to working in team environments and know rewards are best earned not given out like candy for no effort remain in group content.

Solo content is used by everyone regardless of age. My assumption is that the older players just stop there. Perhaps they don't put as much time into the game. The ~60 cumulative hours or so it takes to 90 (yes i realize it can be done faster) would last quite a long time if you can only really afford to drop 2 hours a week into the game.

03/09/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Joynal
Raiders over 25 aren't that rare, Kerrath, though the more hardcore raiders tend to be younger. I'll give you that. I see comments in the forums all the time from people saying things like "I used to raid hardcore in Vanilla and BC but don't now that I have a job and family. I raid with a casual group (or LFR) instead."

I agree that they're not rare, in fact I'd wager about ~30% of the people on my realid list were over 25.

03/09/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Joynal
I would imagine PvPers fall heavily on the younger side. But since I pretty much ignore PvP content, I really don't know and it's just pure guess on my part.

the oldest pvper i know is 29. i have never met someone older than her who engages in pvp more than casually.

03/09/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Joynal
That could be a larger part of what is really giving us different impressions with you on a PvP server and me on a quasi-RP PVE server. RP isn't cool, so the younger crowd avoids it for the most part. Being on a PvP server and killing other players is cool so the younger people flock there. The realm types tend to polarize the demographics. Normal PvE servers would probably better reflect the general population but neither of us are playing on one.

RP unpopularity is a lot more than social pressure. There are a lot of contributing factors as to why it takes a very specific kind of person to be interested in roleplay. For me, the primary problem I have with roleplay in world of warcraft specifically is that it seems to be a seperate activity from actual gameplay. ie, i would roleplay if gameplay counted as roleplay, wherein if i killed such and such an enemy it would mean that i was permitted to include it into my character's personal story, and where my character's strength both in character and out of character were directly correlated. I never really understood the idea that some level 40 in a matching set of highly overpriced green quality matching armor was supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with a level 80 in full 277s who was declared the 'light of dawn' or so forth.

Part of the draw of a MMO is directly correlated to the draw of a PVP server. You might play an MMO because it's a means to artificially inflate your ego and show that you are better than the other players. And PVP servers let you do that even more. That's probably directly why the best guilds in this game have always been on PVP servers, with rarely any exceptions.

But I still think that part of why you feel its younger is because the younger players are more vocal and "in your face" while older players generally aren't out there drawing attention to themselves. They simply play so you don't notice them.

I think that it's more that by my definition of "playing the game", they arent playing the game. They're just logging on every few days for maybe an hour to get a couple quests done, or something like that. You'd be more likely to meet them if they were trying to organize a pug (even though pugs dont happen anymore) or starting a guild or so forth.
Edited by Kerrath on 3/9/2013 1:54 PM PST
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90 Gnome Priest
17670
So then it's really your definition of playing, which is different than mine and mine is different from others, and that causes a different in perception in who plays the game.

I might not PvP but it doesn't keep those who do PvP but have the obnoxious personalities from infringing on my enjoyment of the game via their behavior outside battlegrounds and arenas. But I'm still not going to consider them representative of all players in general.
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90 Undead Monk
13235
But I'm still not going to consider them representative of all players in general.

"All players" isn't exactly meaningful, because not every player is affected by game changes. The 30 year old gathering fan who only plays 2 hours per week isn't really going to care about anything that happens at the level cap. They shouldn't be included when discussing level cap game changes because said changes will not really affect them.
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90 Gnome Priest
17670
But we're not discussing level cap game changes. We're discussing player behavior and players can be <insert word of your choice> whether they're level 1 or level 90.
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90 Undead Monk
13235
But we're not discussing level cap game changes. We're discussing player behavior and players can be <insert word of your choice> whether they're level 1 or level 90.

The conversation was about removing social darwinists from LFR, which is a level cap activity.
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90 Gnome Priest
17670
Actually it started about players flagging up and running into the middle of Galleon groups, another social darwinist activity that doesn't actually require max cap but isn't likely to be seen outside of close to max cap.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11870
The conversation was about removing social darwinists from LFR, which is a level cap activity.


Actually it started about players flagging up and running into the middle of Galleon groups, another social darwinist activity that doesn't actually require max cap but isn't likely to be seen outside of close to max cap.


.. . . . . *Glances over, then again for certainty* is ... that them agreeing on something?

*Boggles*
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90 Gnome Priest
17670
You really had to stretch for that, didn't you?
Hope you didn't strain any muscles.
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90 Undead Monk
13235
i agree with joynal sometimes. ie joynal feels that the game always must cater the the casual majority and i feel that doing so actually makes the game worse for casuals, but we both agree that for all intents and purposes, this is the mcdonalds of mmos.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12695
TL;DR

http://www.the-iss.com/2009/01/internet_argument_tips.php
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90 Pandaren Monk
11870
TL;DR

http://www.the-iss.com/2009/01/internet_argument_tips.php


Love it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13255
... How did this go all LFR when it was me stomping my feet about stupid people and being forced to be flagged. X.x
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90 Gnome Priest
17670
You don't visit our realm forum often, do you? Thread derailment is a cherished tradition here.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13255
lol, between midterms, moving, and spring break- nope, haven't been reading it. lol
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