Paladins OP is 10-man?

90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
On our 3-heal progression fights right now our guild's holy paladin is beating me and our resto druid by a SIGNIFICANT amount on healing done... and we're all at about the same skill level. We don't have a disc priest but there's something fishy going on that wasn't going on before the patch.
Reply Quote
100 Goblin Shaman
8700
I've done a lot more content than you, and know a lot more about paladin (and apparently priest) healing than you. That said, you apparently need educated. Kindly read the post above this, the bubble is applied from healing. A passive requires no actions. Learn game mechanics before trying to add useful content.


Actually- OP has a point. No reason to be Mr "Elitist" on him.

I noticed this myself OP. It's like the whole Divine Aegis thing- but with a different class- again. I think absorbs are still slightly out of whack. Only thing that would explain it.

Thing is, absorbs will always effect other healers in a group. Been like that since at least DS.
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/9/2013 10:30 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10400
Before people start to say that mastery is too strong compared to other stats, try out a crit build and watch how your hps stays the same while your IH goes down a bit.

Trust me.

Just try it.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
15250
now its like this 1.holy paladin like 10% more heal. 2 priest holy and disc are doing almost the same heal and then the rest.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
For 10 mans, I think that answer is yes. Paladin Mastery is just amazing.

But I also think part of your perception is the fact that you are primarily a Holy Priest. I find that many healers don't understand how to synergize with other healers. And well, Paladin Mastery wants them to keep healing without ever stopping even if everyone is topped off... for the Illuminated Healing and the beacon transfers. Why not spam Holy Shock and Holy Light for those benefits? You want to have HoPo ready!

Holy Priests want to stop to let HoTs finish the job. If you are constantly topping people off, all the mastery in Echoes goes wasted. And with the burst and AoE potential of Holy Priests, lots of low Health Bars do not induce panic.

When these two pair, you throw a Renew and start a Heal on someone who doesn't need huge healing and then see a Word of Glory slam down and top them off. It's not like the Paladin is bad or intentionally sniping. They see a bar they fill it up. They just don't realize that they don't have to, except for the fact that falling behind on healing is bad as they don't burst AoE.

You see what I am getting at? If you aren't used to pairing with a Holy Priest or Resto Druid, Paladins try to keep up on healing as much as possible and rely on their Mastery. Holy Priests do the same. But they don't mesh well l unless the two really understand each other and build that trust.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
10900
For 10 mans, I think that answer is yes. Paladin Mastery is just amazing.

But I also think part of your perception is the fact that you are primarily a Holy Priest. I find that many healers don't understand how to synergize with other healers. And well, Paladin Mastery wants them to keep healing without ever stopping even if everyone is topped off... for the Illuminated Healing and the beacon transfers. Why not spam Holy Shock and Holy Light for those benefits? You want to have HoPo ready!

Holy Priests want to stop to let HoTs finish the job. If you are constantly topping people off, all the mastery in Echoes goes wasted. And with the burst and AoE potential of Holy Priests, lots of low Health Bars do not induce panic.

When these two pair, you throw a Renew and start a Heal on someone who doesn't need huge healing and then see a Word of Glory slam down and top them off. It's not like the Paladin is bad or intentionally sniping. They see a bar they fill it up. They just don't realize that they don't have to, except for the fact that falling behind on healing is bad as they don't burst AoE.

You see what I am getting at? If you aren't used to pairing with a Holy Priest or Resto Druid, Paladins try to keep up on healing as much as possible and rely on their Mastery. Holy Priests do the same. But they don't mesh well l unless the two really understand each other and build that trust.


It also takes an intuitive Holy paladin to know how other classes heal as well. I two healed Horridon with a pug Holy Priest. Because I know that they work more off HoTs and raw healing more than absorbs, I didn't rush to top people off, and instead focused on keeping them in safe zones. Overall, we came out equal with me providing the absorbs and them providing the raw healing.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
I know it might be a bit disconcerting to accept that up to a third of a Paladin's healing is literally coming out for free, but I have to think that any healer who claims to be putting more thought than "what heal/ability should I use to keep the raid alive" in the moment of the cast is probably a bit dishonest.


The reason for my debate ultimately had nothing to do with the definition of "passive" but with how the OP tried to make it sound like "it just happens" ie. "passive healing".

As for not taking mastery into consideration for spell choice, maybe no other paladin in the world considers it besides me, but I believe that's false. For example, I can't remember the last time I casted Holy Light for any other reason than to apply a mastery shield.


I use Holy Light as a pre-emptive tool during light raid damage, much like I use Holy Shock. HL is almost mana neutral for me in combat, and it I can use it between HS's to generate a few shields on "problem children" I will. Yes, EF is by far superior, but that doesn't mean I can't use both at the same time.

With a 4 second cast on HS, I have a little bit of "dead time" (during light raid damage) which I can either blanket players, or melee to regen some mana.

Like you said. It's a great Mastery shield tool, especially when combined with our other spells.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
If you have 100,000 healadins and 10,000 resto Shaman, then in the top percent you would have 1,000 Paladins versus 100 Shaman vying for the top ranks. Odds are in the favor of the former. There's a reason High Schools compete with other schools of the same size. The things I mentioned were meant as contributing factors, not the sole reason. Fixing a problem correctly means noticing all the things that caused the issue to begin with, not just the blatant ones.

EDIT: But you're also right in your thinking. It was wrong for me to throw out a bullcrap comment like "more skilled healers play paladins." <Worthless words deleted> I regret posting it, mostly because it detracts from the other, more knowledgeable paladins that could comment.

I'll summarize my own stance here.

(a) I agree paladins are representing themselves strongly, possibly too strong.

(b) While WoL is useful, a cursory glance only reflects one aspect of a healer's performance, their HPS, and should not in and of itself be a sign of OP-ness (but it definitely does say which classes should be looked at more carefully).

(c) Mastery is too strong for paladins relative to our other stats. It should not be a complete no-brainer to stack a single stat. There should be incentive to go crit or Haste for certain playstyles or to complement certain raid compositions and roles. Right now, there's little reason to do so apart from gimmick fights such as healing Tsulong where shields are less useful.

(d) I believe that a part of our current OPness is from the T-14 set bonus. My numbers could be off, but I would say that the set bonus by itself increases our effectiveness by at least 10%, through mana efficiency and throughput both. I don't know much about other healer sets, but this seems a bit overly strong. Once paladins move away from the set bonus (or retain it at the cost of iLevel compared to other healers) we may see a more equal swing.


a) agree
b) agree
c) Now that mana pools are capped, Haste lost a lot of power. If you could stack int high enough to get a 600k mana pool, people would definitely being choosing haste more often. Unfortunately, limited mana pool favors mastery shields.
d) agree
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11780
Instead of wanting to beat a class down, why not ask to buff all the others, do you want to wipe over and over in fights?

Imo, make us all amazing and lets own every boss no matter what healing combo we have...

Every healer brings their own "perks" to the table, some are just stronger then others, and thats the only issue I see.

Nerfing is too common a demand... If your pally helps you kill the boss (which I doubt because healers work together not against) is that a problem?

Or a disc priest? Or whatever other healer was good. Monks were so OP that high end guilds managed to clear content. Did they complain about their OP healer? I doubt it. Some of us probably just wish we made our mains a different class... and that's very sad.

Just balance all the healers up to this supposed over tuned mastery, thats my perfect WoW world anyway
Reply Quote
90 Undead Rogue
6580
DERP! PALLIEZ R OP BECUZ THAY HAZ PASSIV MASTREE!

That is what you sound like.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
"I've done more content than you"
"Our mastery is not passive!"
"Skilled players just tend to gravitate towards paladins"

I never knew the paladin forum community had so many trolls.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
0
"Skilled players just tend to gravitate towards paladins"

I never knew the paladin forum community had so many trolls.


Not a troll, I just made an asinine comment that I regret. :\

I work in gaming, and part of my job is to take issues and arbitrate values to them. In this case, an earlier post showed that Healadins were top performing in WoL. So it would follow...

Observation: "Healadins are providing about 10% more HPS than the average healer."

My job would be to list each and every single possible reason, no matter how minute, which might affect this. Some things listed may not be true or accurate, and could later be verified by fact checking.

So if we accept that healadins were overperforming, I'd write up a list such as:

Healadins have less loot competition so have higher iLevel among the raids doing ToT.
More paladins means a larger pool of candidates to pick from, so only top paladins get selected by raids.
Raid leaders prefer healadins.
The mindset of a player that chooses a paladin as a healer is also one that is willing to put in more effort (which we've demonstrated as false. It's like how younger folk go Alliance on average).
Healadins are overpowered because: Heals have higher coefficients, HP generation mechanic is mana-easy and permits more heals on progression, Mastery is too strong, Cooldowns are too strong, etc., any of which could be true or untrue.
Healadin cooldowns provide HPS instead of utility, such as Guardian of Ancient Kings versus Spirit Link Totem.
T-14 is too powerful (This is the one that I feel contributes the most, hands down).
Data is incorrect because Healadins are assigned to heal the first boss with the water buff.
Data is incorrect/skewed because of RNG, i.e, not enough data.

And so forth. Many of those ideas are farfetched (like the pokemon, ya' know?). Some are blatantly wrong. Some make for less than a 1% difference, even IF they're true.

But what I said didn't come out that way, and on the internet, we're responsible for what others read, not just what we intend.

<flubs the issue>

In other news, I did enjoy the new LFR raid.
Edited by Wards on 3/12/2013 3:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]