Help me help my mistweaver

71 Draenei Hunter
11925
Can any good mistweavers provide a brief explanation of how they heal in 5.2? The other night my group was trying Horridon and healing was rough. As a priest I was doing 40-50K hps, the resto shaman was doing 30-40K hps, and our mistweaver was doing around 10K....

I know that mistweavers are capable of more than that. From what I can tell ours is trying to fistweave. Is fistweaving no longer viable? Is mistweaver healing without melee viable? I've never played a monk so I have no idea what to give for advice.
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90 Human Monk
10490
As a monk, doing basically this will net you some pretty good results:
1) Cast ReM on cooldown.
2) Cast Expel Harm on cooldown and chi less than max.
3) Use uplift when you have excess Chi. (or EM if you have a LOT of extra chi)
4) Keep up BoK.
5) Use Surging Mists at 5 stacks of Vital Mists.
6) Use your free tier 30 talent whenever you get a chance

Outside of that, just continue to Jab>Tiger Palm and use your Mana Tea to keep your mana up.

This will net you some pretty good results. From there, getting your results higher will be proper usage of TFT, mixing in Soothing Mists to generate chi for more uplifts during key damage phases, etc.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
I don't know the fight mchanics of that particular encounter but I don't see how any mistweaver even remotely trying can put up numbers that low unless the fight is almost pure tank healing and they are being sniped. If there is even negligible raid damage going on just putting out renewing mist on cooldown-the most basic aspect of monk aoe healing-will beat the number you listed. Is it possible your monk was actually dpsing, not healing?
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
I don't know the fight mchanics of that particular encounter but I don't see how any mistweaver even remotely trying can put up numbers that low unless the fight is almost pure tank healing and they are being sniped. If there is even negligible raid damage going on just putting out renewing mist on cooldown-the most basic aspect of monk aoe healing-will beat the number you listed. Is it possible your monk was actually dpsing, not healing?

Basically this.

If the monk was actually healing and attempting to fistweave, they would probably have better success doing a Soothing Mist approach, which is absolutely viable currently (it's easier and super efficient). Fistweaving is viable, but has changed a lot so mistakes (or lack of understanding of the mechanics) really backfire. For either approach, Renewing Mists should always be kept on CD, as well as Expel Harm, with Uplift/TFT utilized.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9490
If he can move, have him fistweave the adds. Blackout kick on the adds is quite a bit of healing. Make sure he moves his statue when you guys swap to a different door. Most of his healing will come from eminence so the statue is very important. He basically can play as a dps and the smart heals will do the rest. Also, revival is HUGE on the second door! Raid wide cleanse of the poisons when the priests are all down is crazy good. Again, he has to move A LOT if he plans on fistweaving. Lots of junk to dodge but he would easily triple his HPS by cleaving down adds. Just tell him to keep up the tiger palm debuff and double SPK then blackout kick with 3 or more adds. Or jab+tp 5 times-surging mists-jab-blackout kick-chi wave-mana tea when you get to the last phase. Single target you actually will gain mana back while using that rotation.
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
@ Omwrecker: Chi Burst > Chi Wave
Why does the "rotation" you listed not even have RM included? That's.... less than ideal.

I wouldn't recommend double SCK spam at all to someone who's clearly already struggling. SCK+RM/EH->BoK.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9490
Well sure you can weave it in if you have no mana issues. And SCK is nice for the added dmg. If they are 3 healing Horridon I would imagine the added dps of SCK would be desired. I would even say SCK jab then blackout kick for the added dps and burst healing. Healing wont be an issue if he starts fistweaving and leaning more towards the dmg side. Thats just my opinion though. And I dont see why what you recommended wouldnt be worth trying either.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12625
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-66g96jnzu974qmbm/sum/healingDone/?s=6715&e=7471

cast renewing mist and besides that do dps on adds, 1 sck + 1 rem / expel harm into BoK
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90 Pandaren Monk
9490
@ sukkapunch Is renewing mists worth it on CD with 70% overheal? At least with double SCK you get the dmg with the overhealing.
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
@ sukkapunch Is renewing mists worth it on CD with 70% overheal? At least with double SCK you get the dmg with the overhealing.

Yes, RM is cheaper and smarter than SCK.

You seem far more concerned with damage than healing, with approaches that will ultimately oom yourself much, much faster.
For example your SCK->Jab->BoK suggestion. Just... no.
edit: Just to be clear, you do realize that SCK on 3+ targets procs Muscle Memory, right? If you were to use two chi/MM generators in a row, it would be 2 SCKs in that situation. Literally zero reason to Jab after a SCK.
Edited by Swaggle on 3/9/2013 3:29 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
9490
Yeah on a fight like horridon, getting adds down fast helps with healing. Less dispels and less healing overall with whatever each gate is throwing at you. Im saying if you're gonna be 3 healing a fight, use the advantage of having the dps/heal monk and focus on the dps aspect and the healing will take care of itself since its all smart healing anyways.

And actually if you spinning crane kick then TP, its cheaper than renewing mists. Im not quite sure what the 'no just no' is. Saying no doesnt say why not. And if you switch cycles between a 15 second rotation and burst healing as a fistweaver, you can go into mana positive healing while maintaining decent smart healing output.

And the reason I suggested sck then jab is for burst healing and dps. Sck takes time to channel so if you needed the burst smart heals you could jab out of your sck so you could blackout kick faster. Im not saying as a rotation do that, which is why I said if you needed the burst. Its on demand chi and to deal with burst situations. Every tool kit had mana inefficient ways to burst heal. I would use an expel harm if it was up or maybe your banked surging mists cast. But for burst healing it works quite well with 3+ mobs up.

At least in my opinion blackout kicking 3 mobs is like a tweaked version of LoD from a pally and renewing mists is like an abortion of wild growth. I like the direct heals and will push them out however I can as fast as I can if its needed. You dont even come close to ooming as a fistweaver even when maxing your dps output. Fistweaving is not all about healing anymore. You need to consider the advantage of the dps you're doing now. Thats how blizz tuned it. So you need to maximize dmg AND healing when considering situations.
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
03/09/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Omwrecker
And actually if you spinning crane kick then TP, its cheaper than renewing mists. Im not quite sure what the 'no just no' is. Saying no doesnt say why not. And if you switch cycles between a 15 second rotation and burst healing as a fistweaver, you can go into mana positive healing while maintaining decent smart healing output.

SCK+Jab is a waste of mana (wasting a Muscle Memory proc) and also you should never Jab on 3+ targets unless you are specced Power Strikes and want 2 Chi (but you could also Soothing Mist or CJL for a similar result for less mana).
Anyway. Multi-target, SCK is your chi generator, BoK is your filler Chi spender. TP only to maintain Tiger Power.
Single-target, Jab is the chi generator, TP is the filler chi spender. BoK only to maintain Serpent's Zeal.
Keep in mind, SCK is CHEAPER than Jab.

It sounds like you haven't really tested out an aoe rotation...? It's actually really easy to maintain a SCK->BoK rotation without wasting Muscle Memory, with almost no downtime. That is with using Jab on Power Strike procs (and only then), and simply RM and EH on CD.

It seems pretty apparent from your posts that you're not very keen on RM...? In which case I'm not sure I can convince you of much of anything, since I consider it our primary healing tool, regardless of whether you are healing from melee or ranged.

But hey, I'm just speaking from my experience. I can't help but notice you've yet to down anything in ToT on that character. :/
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90 Pandaren Monk
9490
Yes I ran last tier on my monk but did some testing and theorycrafting on the ptr. And as I said I would only jab out of a SCK to get more burst heals to blackout kick faster. Yes its a waste of mana and as I said, all healers have high mana spells for fast increased throughput. RM is fine but like I said, it was 70% overhealing, which is a LOT. SCK is right there too but at least you get dmg from it. But I still play my monk and run him in LFR and 5 mans and know how the mechanics work and how much mana it takes to do the things Im suggesting.

RM is strong but its kinda had priority because of jab jab uplift. Its good but I dont think its amazing. I would use it but not on CD. But thats just me. Eminence is our main healing tool while fistweaving.

And I agree SCKx2 and blackout kick is easy. And yet I have people saying in this thread that I shouldnt recommend it to the monk asking for help. Its cheap and constant aoe healing with a nice burst heal at the end with blackout kick.

Again, I would only jab out of a spinning crane kick for the faster blackout kick heal and thats if expel harm was on CD. Cause its a nice heal with multiple adds up. A waste of mana yes, but possibly necessary if you wanna push faster blackout kicks.
Edited by Omwrecker on 3/9/2013 9:30 PM PST
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And I agree SCKx2 and blackout kick is easy. And yet I have people saying in this thread that I shouldnt recommend it to the monk asking for help. Its cheap and constant aoe healing with a nice burst heal at the end with blackout kick.


The problem is that you waste a Muscle Memory proc, making the whole thing much less efficient. It's much, much better to do SCK + RM/EH > BoK. You get more healing for less mana. Advising a new healer to do two SCKs in a row is .... not doing them any favors.

It seems like you don't like Renewing Mists because of its high overheal, and you think the overheal makes it not worth casting. This couldn't be farther from the truth. In my experience, even when I just cast RM on cooldown on a random person, and it's largely overhealing, it still does almost half my effective healing. Even taking out the overheal, it's got the highest HPET of any spell in our toolkit. It's smart, it's powerful, it's cheap. It's not a "high mana spells for fast increased throughput". It's like ..... the opposite of that. RM is a maintenance buff you keep up on the raid so you can use Uplift. And you have to set up RM ahead of time, so -- it's the opposite of fast throughput. Uplift is the high-cost, fast-throughput spell.

Point is, you're wrong about RM, and you should cast it even when you're focusing on damage. Using it will let you do more damage AND more healing more efficiently.
Edited by Heartsings on 3/9/2013 11:10 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
9490
My whole advice was centered around fistweaving on horridon and no you dont uplift as a fistweaver. You might change gears if it requires you too and chi torpedo out back and out again to start mistweaving. And there is nothing wrong with double SCK and blackout kicking. If you're doing t15 content then you have the spirit to do that and not kill your mana. And if you DO, then I already addressed that and provided a rotation that is mana positive. Jeeze people. Its like people just wanna jump in and take one thing I say and say NO ITS WRONG! Its a tool kit for a reason.

And I already stated that if expel harm was on CD I would either SCK again depending on the dmg going out or jab for fast chi for the expensive but faster blackout kick. Double SCK is done because its mana efficient. More so than jab and it heals more. So if you have the time to, its worth it when 3 mobs are around. And if expel harm is off CD then yes, you can SCK then expel harm then blackout kick. But if you're aoe healing for 20 seconds, then what? Expel harm wont be up again. So where do you get your second chi from??? Its either SCK again or jab. And dont even go down the road of uplift as a fistweaver!

Im not saying what Im recommending is law but it is an option on the fight that the OP was asking about. Theres no way you can tell me that what Ive said wont increase the HPS of said healer AND provide substantially more dps which in turn will make the fight easier on everyone. And no, you wont go oom. I ran bladelord on LF and JUST SCK and blackout kicked till the adds were dead and was fine on mana. Ilvl 495.

And how does casting renewing mists on CD help you do more dmg? You're just fluffing your argument with statements that make no sense now. Im not WRONG about renewing mists. There is no reason to cast it on CD. If there is aoe dmg going out then fine. But it will jump to someone who say just got hit and a healer is going to spot heal them and it will just sit there and overheal. I understand renewing mists is a major part of MISTWEAVING but its quite a bit less for fistweaving. Its not useless. But theres a reason why its hitting 70% overheal.

Im simply suggesting that if they are having trouble with healing, fistweaving can make things easier. The dps contributes to less healing overall, just like dispelling does in that fight. You'd be better off focusing on controlling the dots and killing the adds than brute force healing through it all. Fistweaving is great for that.
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03/10/2013 12:22 AMPosted by Omwrecker
And how does casting renewing mists on CD help you do more dmg?


Because it lets you BoK faster. Because it's a source of Chi that's cheaper than both Jab and SCK, and will do more effective healing over its duration than either of them. When you want to BoK, mixing in RM with your fistweaving will make you faster and more efficient. You don't have to take time to pick your target ... just casting it on yourself every time (and letting it spread from there) will increase your effective healing done.

You're right in that .... saying that you should NEVER SCK twice in a row is incorrect. But it should definitely be rare.

Back to the OP: Make sure your monk is actually in Mistweaver spec and int gear; make sure they place their Serpent statue. And tell him to use RM more. If he's only pulling 10k HPS, Renewing Mists may well be smarter than the player.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12625
omwrecker, you are just completely wrong on so much of what you are saying, no disrespect or anything.

first of all: "how does renewing mists help you do more damage" is the wrong attitude all together. If you are so concerned with outputting dps rather than keeping people alive, just reroll WW. You don't want to fistweave every single fight, because at the end of the day not every fight is optimal for fistweaving. We have the choice do we want to range heal or do we want to fistweave, or a mixture of both - but at the end of the day, all that matters is how much healing we deliver with either, not how much damage is done.

For the record, fistweavers should absolutely use uplift....why not? If you follow aproper fistweaving rotation you will have excess chi to spend that isn't tied to muscle memory, if the proper situation is present for an uplift (ie ReMs on multiple targets which require healing) why would you not use uplift? You are still a healer, not a dps.

I will speak on horridon now because that was originally what was asked. ReM may do a lot of overhealer, but if you look at the log I linked, its also my second most healing done with ~20% of my overall healing, that is in no way a bad thing. The bulk of horridon should be done as such (imo) : adds are the primary focus:

remember statue costs no mana now so dont be afraid to move it around based on where you want statue eminence to hit
lead with ReM (and recast on CD if you are not chi capped)
SCK x1 (2chi 1MM)
blackout kick (ideally hitting 4 targets) (0chi 0mm)
SCK (1chi 1mm)
expel harm (2chi 1mm)
blackout kick (0chi 0mm)
by this point, ReM is close to being off CD, if it isn't, SCK first, if it is, ReM then SCK (2chi 1mm)
BoK
expel harm wont be off cd by this point, so you SCK then Tpalm
REPEAT THE ABOVE process until either expel harm or ReM is off CD so that you may incorporate the excess chi into a BoK
keep in mind extra Tpalms aren't bad b/c you get free surges, which gives you an extra chi so that you can BoK more

please note that the timings and priority rotation given above is a loose guide. You will find you have plenty of spare chi to BoK (without wasting a MM) just by weaving in ReMs and Expel harms, especially b/c while the aforementioned two are on CD you should throw out a dispel anyways, both the magic poison and disease dots need to be dispelled so detox should be used on CD as well. I recommend using revival during the poison phase, if you aren't doing it properly you will have a low health raid with tons of stacks of poison debuffs on them, perfect opportunity for revival.

Now if you want a slightly more advanced version, it is ok to use SCK multiple times on groups to pull out extra BoK on this boss, HOWEVER (and this is a HUGE HOWEVER) KNOW YOUR MANA LIMITS. DO NOT SPAM THAT CONSTANTLY THAT IS VERY BAD.

Also this goes without saying imo, run Xuen
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90 Pandaren Monk
9490
Im so wrong about so much? First of all, if you're fistweaving, you SHOULD be concerned with dps! How can you say you shouldnt be???? Blizz clearly stated that you are trading off some healing for some dps. Why would you trade off healing when you dont care about the dps you are contributing? THAT sounds like the wrong idea to me imo.

Secondly, you want to tell him anything about NOT using ReM on CD in the last phase??? Cause one tank taking dmg would be a crazy waste of 20k mana for a hot to jump to the raid who is taking no dmg at all. At least I gave him a single target rotation to use.

And you say the SAME things I do about SCK. Use it in a row when its called for. I dont see why people are so mana starved when using mana tea glyphed on CD. You can go forever fistweaving if you use your ReM smartly. So ok, I accept that if you use ReM on CD you WILL have issues with mana. So dont. Why use it on CD when its 70% overheal? Thats bad mana management. And if you're fistweaving, why not use a spell with similar overhealing that will do dmg at the same time? You also mention nothing about using Chi wave on CD. Why not?

And who said anything about fistweaving every fight???? I even specified that it was conditional and said you could burn your 3 chi torpedoes to find yourself at ranged to prep for heavy raid dmg with soothing and rem on CD. And your uplift is 73% overheals at 5% of your total healing done. You think thats worth it? Sounds to me like most of your mana problems are just from bad calls on spell usage and mindlessly pushing buttons to try to top meters. I would rather smart heal people with those 2 chi then push uplift to heal what 2 people? And the rest is all overhealed? That was ok with jab jab uplift days but you cant burn 2 chi on a 73% overheal. Chi is too valuable. Its our output resource.

Call me out on all of this but at the end of the day, my style is my style and yours is yours. The op is free to consider what has been said by both parties. I prefer to burn my mana to gen chi to smart heal more and you prefer to burn your chi and mana to overheal more.

And your assessment of all that matters is the healing we provide is completely false. COMPLETELY. That is the whole POINT of fistweaving. Its not a style meant to compete with traditional healing output. Its meant to mix in dmg and healing when dmg counts and healing is under control.
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
Omwrecker the thing is, your advice is situational at best, and you've consistantly underplayed our primary heal. RM should always be doing more healing than eminence with the exception of encounters where there's a damage increase gimmick.
You can stick with your personal "style" but I'd seriously advise anyone else - especially someone who is already struggling - from adopting your strategy.
So ok, I accept that if you use ReM on CD you WILL have issues with mana. So dont. Why use it on CD when its 70% overheal? Thats bad mana management. And if you're fistweaving, why not use a spell with similar overhealing that will do dmg at the same time? You also mention nothing about using Chi wave on CD. Why not?

I didn't see anyone saying RM causes mana issues? RM on CD doesn't hurt my mana. It does about the same overhealing as Eminence does, based on looking at my ToT logs on fights where I was doing any degree of fistweaving. RM is our best heal AND generates a Chi AND fuels Uplift, which you can and should be using when appropriate.
The reason no one is talking about Chi Wave is because it is a terrible talent choice to use most of the time. Chi Burst is the go-to talent. I toyed with Zen Sphere on Tortos, and it's certainly been improved, but Chi Burst would probably have done a bit more throughput.

The only times I use SCK multiple times in a row is when I need the aoe healing from it. When using it for fistweaving, it's just a jab replacement for chi generation. Not weaving in EH/RM is being lazy and poor play.

And, again, if you have issues with Chi generation like you keep saying, spec into Power Strikes or Chi Brew.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12625
70% overheal, still 20%+ of overall healing done, you are fistweaving to heal not do subpar dps

03/10/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Omwrecker
Why would you trade off healing when you dont care about the dps you are contributing?


you fistweave because it is the best option for the given fight to provide the most healing throughput, this is due to the fact that you can abuse bok/sck healing output because you have multiple adds to attack which are on top of multiple friendly players, this results in a net gain in healing output compared to standing back and mistweaving.

progression fights, my guild needs strong heals, i fistweave on certain fights because its the optimal healing output, let the dps be the dps.

i didnt go into a single target rotation because i don't feel the MW in question is such an idiot he can't figure out to jab -> tp repeatedly with a massive %dmg modifier on single target in which the tank isn't taking damage

i did 90k dps on horridon, what was that worth? it was worth a laugh b/c our dps did a crap ton more than that, what was important is that i had the healing output to keep people alive through the massive ae dmg, and i dispelled twice as much as our next healer, that is what is required from a MW to down this boss, end of story

fistweave to heal, not because you want to pretend to be a dps, doing that will just result in really bad healing output on most fights, and especially on fights w/o damage modifiers, the extra damage you do is just a bonus, you are brought along to be a healer, do so

the OP asked what his MW should do in order to DO MORE HEALING on horridon, because they were DYEING, he did not ask what his MW should do in order to do more DMG

edit: when did i say i had mana problems? i had no mana problems whatsoever, because i dont waste MM procs

omwrecker, please post on a character that has done some current tier raiding, and show that you have experience besides just having read up on the fights
Edited by Sukkapunch on 3/10/2013 4:02 PM PDT
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