Initial D .... errr.. Disc perceptions

100 Human Priest
15370
03/08/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Kangamooster
When a new monk tank with 9 stacks of armor debuff... flash heal greater heal won't bring him back with 200K damage over 2 secs. And, he did this fancy run-about around the boss, and out of my healing range in the middle and came back with half of his life gone.
With literally zero gear, a Brewmaster with Shuffle and Elusive Brew up has over 50% avoidance.

The debuff can be avoided (two avoids=debuff falls off).

You figure out what the problem is.


Yes, it wasn't until later we realized that there is a debuff, because we were chain pulling happy. Apparently, aoeing 3 little ones, while the big one walked on to you is very very bad.

That was our first time on the island, and the elemental shaman was tanking other ones earlier. Who'd thought you'd need real tank?!

The point I tried to make is not about how to kill dinosaurs. It's how a low health dps can take Atonment heal away from the tank, even the dps doesn't need to healed, but the tank needed it. Yes, we can switch to Flash Heal and Greater Heal, but they just do not seem as efficient as Atonement.
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
The point I tried to make is not about how to kill dinosaurs. It's how a low health dps can take Atonment heal away from the tank, even the dps doesn't need to healed, but the tank needed it. Yes, we can switch to Flash Heal and Greater Heal, but they just do not seem as efficient as Atonement.
They're not supposed to be as efficient as Atonement.

Why aren't you using PW:S?
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045
03/08/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Kangamooster
The point I tried to make is not about how to kill dinosaurs. It's how a low health dps can take Atonment heal away from the tank, even the dps doesn't need to healed, but the tank needed it. Yes, we can switch to Flash Heal and Greater Heal, but they just do not seem as efficient as Atonement.
They're not supposed to be as efficient as Atonement.

Why aren't you using PW:S?


PW:S is pretty much pointless when the damage has already occured. It serves only as a buffer and to give you the borrowed time to to cast flash or greater heal. But if you already have a haste heavy build (like many will in 5.2) this won't even be worth the time and mana.

If someone is pulling out of LOS, you don't know what sort of dmg to expect, and the tank is undergeared-- disc is at the eptiome of it's disadantage.
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100 Human Priest
15370
03/08/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Kangamooster
The point I tried to make is not about how to kill dinosaurs. It's how a low health dps can take Atonment heal away from the tank, even the dps doesn't need to healed, but the tank needed it. Yes, we can switch to Flash Heal and Greater Heal, but they just do not seem as efficient as Atonement.


They're not supposed to be as efficient as Atonement.

Why aren't you using PW:S?


When you have a disc priest, the tank would always have Weaken Soul on him, either with PWS on him, or PWS just broken. And, when a tank needs a lot of heals, it is always when he has Weakend Soul without the bubble.

I always go to Penance first if it's not on cooldown, and even PoM (Is it still bugged? It's doing some ridiculous healing sometimes), just in case you wonder why those were not mentioned.

After that, we can only get back on Flash Heal and Greater Heal, which are less satisfactory to me when compared to Atonement. Not just because Atonement is a smart heal (when it's not healing pets), also because of its HPS when all the buffs are up.

In 5.1, I'd also pop Spirit Shell and spam Flash Heal on the tank, but now, with the 5.2 change, I'd need another healer to do the healing portion while I'm shielding the tank if the bubbles are not enough.

I understand that is how disc works now. I just have to deal with it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
Initial Disc PvE Perceptions:

-I don't use PoH much anymore. Isn't worth the cast when the output is so measly.
-Once everyone's health is very low, i feel my only way of bringing health bars up is Cascade (PoH doesn't cut it).
- Atonement healing went from optional to more mandatory which I don't mind. I feel Atonement healing is my only real way of healing the people who need it the most since PoH isn't really effective.
- I feel like I don't crit heal anymore.
- After the fact that I don't use PoH much anymore and that i mostly heal with PW:S, Cascade, and Attonement, overall I feel our mastery change wasn't needed, was more of a nerf since it doesn't benefit PW:S as much, and was all pretty pointless.

Holy PvE Perceptions:


-Doesn't have the mana to sustain its power in the slighest. Disc is still way superior even after all the justified nerfs and laughably, wrong PvE nerfs.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9585
PW:S is pretty much pointless when the damage has already occured. It serves only as a buffer and to give you the borrowed time to to cast flash or greater heal. But if you already have a haste heavy build (like many will in 5.2) this won't even be worth the time and mana.

Seems to me that you are fighting your class a bit. Trying to find a way to effectively/reactively fill health bars quickly will be an exercise in frustration. You will be much happier when you make it your job to mitigate and stabilize tanks long enough for your healing parner(s) to bring his health back up.
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I actually feel differently than many people here POH feels more beefy now (than it did before). Divine Aegis still clocked in at 20% of my healing.

PW:S is pretty much pointless when the damage has already occured. It serves only as a buffer and to give you the borrowed time to to cast flash or greater heal. But if you already have a haste heavy build (like many will in 5.2) this won't even be worth the time and mana.

If someone is pulling out of LOS, you don't know what sort of dmg to expect, and the tank is undergeared-- disc is at the eptiome of it's disadvantage.


I ..... couldn't disagree more.

Shield is an amazing tool in pretty much all situations. Usually, if someone takes a big hit, they're going to take more damage within 15 seconds, especially a tank. And over that 15-second time span, PW:S is literally the exact same as healing them. Similarly when using Inner Focus -- that bubble-crit is, for the most part, exactly the same as healing them.

Disc is actually at its greatest advantage when the tank is undergeared, because they will typically value Effective Health over every other stat. Guess what absorbs are? Reliable, strong absorbs make an amazing difference for an undergeared tank.

LOS pull? As a druid or monk, if I toss a HoT on the tank before the pull, my healing will steal threat off the tank as he's running back. As a priest, I put a bubble and PoM on him. Not only does PW:S have a longer duration than most HOTs, it won't generate healing threat. So yeah, for an LOS pull, Disc priests are at an advantage.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Right but the situation she described was a tank who was taking squish right now right out side of LOS pull. Literally.

Not I'm in a dungeon, the tank is taking heavy damage and I can give him a bubble to help him while he gets heals.

Those are two different things.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045
03/08/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Mythrose
PW:S is pretty much pointless when the damage has already occured. It serves only as a buffer and to give you the borrowed time to to cast flash or greater heal. But if you already have a haste heavy build (like many will in 5.2) this won't even be worth the time and mana.

Seems to me that you are fighting your class a bit. Trying to find a way to effectively/reactively fill health bars quickly will be an exercise in frustration. You will be much happier when you make it your job to mitigate and stabilize tanks long enough for your healing parner(s) to bring his health back up.


Again, she described a tank face pulling and not being able to keep LOS on him, without expected the sort of dmg she was getting.

This certainly isn't about me. I would not put myself in that situation as a disc priest.

Please read what I said in response to the person who posted about disc vs holy, in comparison to what I said about my experience. They were two completely tangential conclusions.
Edited by Naérdriel on 3/8/2013 4:52 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Initial Disc PvE Perceptions:

-I don't use PoH much anymore. Isn't worth the cast when the output is so measly.
-Once everyone's health is very low, i feel my only way of bringing health bars up is Cascade (PoH doesn't cut it).
- Atonement healing went from optional to more mandatory which I don't mind. I feel Atonement healing is my only real way of healing the people who need it the most since PoH isn't really effective.
- I feel like I don't crit heal anymore.
- After the fact that I don't use PoH much anymore and that i mostly heal with PW:S, Cascade, and Attonement, overall I feel our mastery change wasn't needed, was more of a nerf since it doesn't benefit PW:S as much, and was all pretty pointless.

Holy PvE Perceptions:


-Doesn't have the mana to sustain its power in the slighest. Disc is still way superior even after all the justified nerfs and laughably, wrong PvE nerfs.


I really can't disagree more with several of your points. Everything I've seen on the PTR and Live client says that Holy is in a very strong place, and has the potential to be exceptional on several fights with high movement. As for Disc, I am able to basically spam PW: Shield quite a bit and never run dry. Atonement is VERY strong, and I have other healers to fill health bars up while I'm busy shielding them.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Ah, to reword what I mean. It's not that PW:Shield is useless when a tank is low on health, but Healing has a MORE effective tool kit in this situation.

Also, I'm a big fan of void shift and desperate prayer as a combo.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Ah, to reword what I mean. It's not that PW:Shield is useless when a tank is low on health, but Healing has a MORE effective tool kit in this situation.

Also, I'm a big fan of void shift and desperate prayer as a combo.


It's actually not. You PW: Shield for an instant buffer against death, then heal like mad. It's the fastest preventative/healing spell you can use.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
It's actually not. You PW: Shield for an instant buffer against death, then heal like mad. It's the fastest preventative/healing spell you can use.


Yes, PW:S + tank can basically be thought of as an exercise in keeping the tank under the effects of WS, with the corollary that SoS can be used to eat away at remaining WS so that a fresh shield can be reapplied more quickly, should the 1st shield break early (which of course is often enough the case with tank damage).

And when the shield has been consumed but the tank still has however many seconds of WS left, is meaningfully damaged, and has more damage incoming? I believe this is the situation that was being discussed earlier.

Penance is the obvious 1st choice, though if the situation is particularly dire you should consider slapping Pain Suppression on him, or even PW:B. But the ultimate solution from there is to heal him as best you can with Gheal spam (Flash if your mana can support it, I guess - Flash continues to interact with SoS, right? - but I was always a strong advocate of good Gheal use and it served well in all my pre-MoP Disc raiding experience. I know things may have changed, of course), eating away at that WS, until either it expires or Penance comes off cooldown again.

So - Penance cooldown has been reduced. This helps the situation.

Gheal, along with every other direct heal Disc has, has been minorly buffed with the Mastery change. even if you reforge Mastery off your gear, the remaining Mastery strengthens your heals a little (yes, I know, it's tiny).

Meanwhile, should your Gheal crit, I know it's not satisfying in the same way as having that large health-bar jump we used to see, but keep in mind that the DA that's been applied is invaluable nonetheless, allowing you time to get your next Gheal on him, or Penance comes off cooldown, or WS expires and you can re-apply PW:S.

We'll just... idk, maybe be sitting on the edge of our seats for a while, until we each get a better "feel" for this new healing reality.

Just... never forget pain Suppression.
Edited by Ellarix on 3/8/2013 5:59 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Pain surpression is beast.

Thank you Ella for such a great post. I've learned a bit more from this. Thank you.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12880
It seems to me that sometime between Tier 1 Cataclysm, and now, a lot of Disc Priests have forgotten how to heal a single target (likely a tank) as Disc.

This baffles me, as the Disc Priest has what is arguably the best tookit for single target healing in the game.

Riôt
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
I love this shaman, and I don't regret taking a chance on going Mistweaver at the beginning of MoP, though it ultimately didn't work out for me.

If I could roll back the clock, I'd have stayed with my Disc priest, though. Love everything about Disc. The new PoH/crit reality would be... an adjustment, for me in raiding (and I do sometimes get to run my priest in another guild's alt runs), but I can't imagine it would put me "off" Disc.

"Unfortunately" (and I don't say that as though misfortune has *truely* befallen me), my healing partner decided to go Disc for MoP when I made the commitment to move to Mistweaver, so... here I am, learning how to resto shammy, and loving it :)

It seems to me that sometime between Tier 1 Cataclysm, and now, a lot of Disc Priests have forgotten how to heal a single target (likely a tank) as Disc.

This baffles me, as the Disc Priest has what is arguably the best tookit for single target healing in the game.


I want to say that Disc's single-target healing doesn't pack the same punch it did in Cata, but as I search my brain for concrete information to support that, I realize all I can put my finger on are statements like "why would you waste a Disc priest on single-target healing when they can lolwtfpwn break fights with Spirit Shell for raid damage?"

idk, perhaps someone else has specific information for how Disc single-target spell coefficients were "scaled down" for MoP end-game, as compared to the strength of pally & shaman single-target MoP end-game healing.

(I have yet to master shaman single-target healing, btw... I'm a slow learner, and something happened to this shaman's Disc spec. I can't find it *anywhere*!!! >.> )
Edited by Ellarix on 3/8/2013 7:33 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
11815
03/08/2013 06:05 AMPosted by Naérdriel
Really, I felt like I had way more room on my bar with disc.


I'm surprised, whenever I go from disc to holy, I end up with so many open buttons with holy that I don't have with disc. Of course that varies drastically these days with talents anyway. Desp prayer = extra button, Feathers = Extra Button, Spectral Guise = Extra button etc
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100 Human Priest
15370
I want to say that Disc's single-target healing doesn't pack the same punch it did in Cata, but as I search my brain for concrete information to support that


Change in crit heal in 5.2.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12810
I had a slightly different experience.

When I say that, I mean that I actually felt a lot more comfortable in LFR (just did a quickie test) and Galleon runs than in heroics. I could focus on prevention (admittedly our strong point) and let the RDruid, RShammy, and HPally pump out the actual hp toppers.

Had a new tank in a heroic who accidently facepulled extras and got knocked into more, and lemme tell ya, when weakened soul is on the party, SS is on CD, and damage is going all over the place, you can end up feeling well nigh helpless to get hp back up or even do much preventive maintenance on what HP is there.

So overall - mana efficiency feels good, working in a team feels good, preventing predictable damage feels great - but recovering from major mishaps is definitely weaker. I'm seriously considering going to holy for heroics (never use my shadow spec anyways, literally) and reserving disc for raid and/or guild group runs where emergencies are less likely to happen.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
Initial Disc PvE Perceptions:

-I don't use PoH much anymore. Isn't worth the cast when the output is so measly.
-Once everyone's health is very low, i feel my only way of bringing health bars up is Cascade (PoH doesn't cut it).
- Atonement healing went from optional to more mandatory which I don't mind. I feel Atonement healing is my only real way of healing the people who need it the most since PoH isn't really effective.
- I feel like I don't crit heal anymore.
- After the fact that I don't use PoH much anymore and that i mostly heal with PW:S, Cascade, and Attonement, overall I feel our mastery change wasn't needed, was more of a nerf since it doesn't benefit PW:S as much, and was all pretty pointless.

Holy PvE Perceptions:


-Doesn't have the mana to sustain its power in the slighest. Disc is still way superior even after all the justified nerfs and laughably, wrong PvE nerfs.


I really can't disagree more with several of your points. Everything I've seen on the PTR and Live client says that Holy is in a very strong place, and has the potential to be exceptional on several fights with high movement. As for Disc, I am able to basically spam PW: Shield quite a bit and never run dry. Atonement is VERY strong, and I have other healers to fill health bars up while I'm busy shielding them.


What are these points you disagree with besides my comment on Holy? I don't see what I said about Holy is a stretch. Holy has mana issues.

Shamans have Tidal Waves and Water Shield
Druids have Omen of Clarity
Paladins have Holy Power
Disc Priests have rapture
Holy Priests have.......Serendipity? Too bad we don't use Flash Heal often.

Holy has awesome output, but they don't have the mana to sustain it like other healers. And don't even get me started on Holy's other limitation (Chakra).

As for Disc, what points of mine do you disagree with? I too use PW:S and Attonement a lot now because like I said, PoH doesn't cut it. And really, we have to rely on other healers to top off the health bars? If that's the case, by all means please have them return our mastery to a straight +absorption boost. That way we get more bang for our buck with PW:S spaming, Attonement will heal more, DA will remain the same, and they wouldn't had to have neutered our ability to raw crit heal.

PS: Why Panda of all races :P
Edited by Senari on 3/9/2013 1:26 AM PST
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