Monk Review doesn't address the damage nerfs

80 Pandaren Monk
4515
I am seriously reconsidering my monk here after the damage nerf, but told myself not to make any rash decisions until GC had a chance to come out during the review and explain what was going on with the drastic nerfs.

They're not mentioned. At all:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8980104/Patch_52_Class_Reviews_%E2%80%93_Part_4______-3_8_2013

From the Review it reads like we got universal buffs and that's it. That's not true!
Edited by Hilfy on 3/8/2013 10:37 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
11260
Oh shut up.

We're the highest DPS class right now. They just made it harder to play a monk.

The removal of our mastery changing our combo breaker has caused the style of game play to shift.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11655
Oh shut up.

We're the highest DPS class right now. They just made it harder to play a monk.

The removal of our mastery changing our combo breaker has caused the style of game play to shift.


No, we really really aren't. Would of at least liked to see them address it.
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Monks didn't receive a nerf to overall damage when you consider the whole package of adjustments in 5.2. In 5.1, monks had high sustained damage but poor burst, lacked a real cleave ability, and had gear scaling and GCD problems (especially during hero) stemming from the truly awful mastery that was Combo Breaker.

In 5.2, we got a reworked mastery system in Bottled Fury, which largely resolved our burst, mastery, and GCD-capping problems, and we got Storm, Earth, and Fire to remedy our lack of a cleave.

Monks didn't need a boost to overall damage; we needed situational, scaling, and quality-of-life improvements. We got them, but they resulted in a pretty substantial buff to damage as well. Mechanically, most monks lost only about 5-10% combo breaker chance (which was often wasted anyway due to the aforementioned GCD-capping problems) but gained a massively more powerful Tigerseye Brew that also charges up faster and can be delayed for an opportune moment (due to stacking to 20), and our level 30 abilities are now a part of our regular rotation because they cost only a single GCD. Accordingly, we took a roughly 12% (not 15% - damage modifiers are multiplicative, not additive) nerf to our sustained damage to balance out all the new mechanics.

Ideally, our damage in a Patchwerk/training dummy situation should remain about the same as in 5.1, but our damage in any given real-world fight should improve because we're better able to adapt to the circumstances of any particular encounter. This assumes skillful play, and the skillcap on Windwalker definitely increased with this patch. If you don't like the idea of having to work harder for your DPS, then perhaps you should choose a different class. I don't mean that as an insult; it's simply a fact that monks are built around being a complicated class to play successfully.

The sky is not falling.
Edited by Dronks on 3/8/2013 2:52 PM PST
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92 Draenei Shaman
11565
Hypothetical Question: If monks got an 95% damage nerf but were still top of the meters, would you be upset? Conversely, does this mean that if we got a 200% damage buff, but were at the bottom of the meters, you'd be happy?

Way too many people are talking about one specific change, and not the big picture. I frankly don't care about any particular moving part, only about the sum of the whole. Can we please start talking about overall performance, preferably with data to back up our arguments?
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90 Pandaren Monk
13240
Ideally, our damage in a Patchwerk/training dummy situation should remain about the same as in 5.1, but our damage in any given real-world fight should improve because we're better able to adapt to the circumstances of any particular encounter. This assumes skillful play, and the skillcap on Windwalker definitely increased with this patch. If you don't like the idea of having to work harder for your DPS, then perhaps you should choose a different class. I don't mean that as an insult; it's simply a fact that monks are build around being a complicated class to play successfully.

The sky is not falling.


We'll not have any of this reasoned, thoughtful analysis of class changes here! These are the WoW forums!
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90 Pandaren Monk
4305
Oh shut up.

We're the highest DPS class right now. They just made it harder to play a monk.

The removal of our mastery changing our combo breaker has caused the style of game play to shift.


Raid bots would disagree with you

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/default/

If we are top dps right now please explain how we're on the low end of the middle of the pack. The mastery change did not so radically alter the way Windwalkers operate as to make getting top DPS out of reach for all but the most elite of the elite players.

And to say they made playing a monk harder is ridiculous. Combo breakers still happen, Tiger Eye Brew stacks still stack and we have a new ability when there's more than one target to kill. If anything they've made things easier with Tiger Eye Brew lighting up when it hits 10 stacks.

No, the OP's point is valid while your argument is seriously lacking.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9420
Not happy about the 15% nerf (5% to blackout kick patch day and 10% to fierce tiger stance which was a hotfix after the patch most of you probably didn't see). Monks are now #8 overall for dps as per raidbot and I lost personally about 10k from these changes. And I personally think this the new ability is a joke. So we basicly lost 15 % overall dmg to gain 10% to tigers eye brew via the master change. This is seriuosly lame! Our guilds assan. rogue which is 10 i lvls lower than me now tops me in the meter by 8k.
Edited by Koronk on 3/8/2013 11:50 AM PST
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80 Pandaren Monk
4515
Monks didn't receive a nerf to overall damage when you consider the whole package of adjustments in 5.2. In 5.1, monks had high sustained damage but poor burst, lacked a real cleave ability, and had gear scaling and GCD problems (especially during hero) stemming from the truly awful mastery that was Combo Breaker.

In 5.2, we got a reworked mastery system in Bottled Fury, which largely resolved our burst, mastery, and GCD-capping problems, and we got Storm, Earth, and Fire to remedy our lack of a cleave.

Monks didn't need a boost to overall damage; we needed situational, scaling, and quality-of-life improvements. We got them, but they resulted in a pretty substantial buff to damage as well. Mechanically, most monks lost only about 5-10% combo breaker chance (which was often wasted anyway due to the aforementioned GCD-capping problems) but gained a massively more powerful Tigerseye Brew that also charges up faster and can be delayed for an opportune moment (due to stacking to 20), and our level 30 abilities are now a part of our regular rotation because they cost only a single GCD. Accordingly, we took a roughly 12% (not 15% - damage modifiers are multiplicative, not additive) nerf to our sustained damage to balance out all the new mechanics.

Ideally, our damage in a Patchwerk/training dummy situation should remain about the same as in 5.1, but our damage in any given real-world fight should improve because we're better able to adapt to the circumstances of any particular encounter. This assumes skillful play, and the skillcap on Windwalker definitely increased with this patch. If you don't like the idea of having to work harder for your DPS, then perhaps you should choose a different class. I don't mean that as an insult; it's simply a fact that monks are build around being a complicated class to play successfully.

The sky is not falling.


Thank you for a detailed, rational post. It's help a lot to alleviate some of my worries about that class.

I can't say if we're good off yet since I'm not high enough to judge, but I'm more willing to stick with it now.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9420
And FYI target dummy damage is down roughly 10k from 5.1
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90 Human Monk
12685
Oh shut up.

We're the highest DPS class right now. They just made it harder to play a monk.

The removal of our mastery changing our combo breaker has caused the style of game play to shift.


No. We aren't. And there are better ways to communicate with people than to tell them to "shut up". All that does is make you look like you're 13 and no one will respect your opinion.
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90 Human Monk
15710
Oh shut up.

We're the highest DPS class right now. They just made it harder to play a monk.

The removal of our mastery changing our combo breaker has caused the style of game play to shift.


The change to our mastery hasn't affected our rotation at all. The only thing that's changed now is TeB pooling because it can stack past 10.

The only really big change to our rotation comes from the trinket off lei shen. Even then it's only useful if you utilize cancelaura macros. Which, I'm sure very few people are going to do, considering most people weren't even cancel auraing TP combo breaker procs from 5.0 through 5.1 (it was bugged btw), and unless you actually used every TP proc (which was only feasible at somewhat low haste levels) accounted for about 2-3 stacks of TeB lost per minute.
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90 Human Monk
15710
As for the "nerfs" to our dps, they are justified. RsK -5% damage and stance of fierce tiger is about a straight 13% damage reduction.

Note: I'm not posting dps because that's where rng comes into play, and overall where sims are beneficial. Averaging out a couple hundred crits is a fairly accurate way to depict ability scaling and that's all I'm trying to prove.

Running a handful of 10 minute tests self buffed the average crit (with optimal TeB usage, IE during procs thanks to TeB stacking past 10) of RsK for myself is a little over 299k. Capping out at 389 being my highest crit and 199 being my lowest. Pre patch if I recall correctly my average was around the 250 level, with maximums only just pushing 300k

Fists of Fury on the other hand, my max tick crit was 200, average about 165 and lowest being around the 110 level. Add in the fact that using chi wave in open globals accounts for 4.89~% of my damage it's fairly obvious atleast in my eyes that without changing any of my gear aside from reforging that the net effect of the patch is an increase in WW monk's damage.

Do I agree with how we were nerfed? No, it effects pve in the right way. But it hurts pvp too much, and there were other ways they could have reduced our damage to it's current state (where it should be) without negatively impacting our position in rated pvp. But don't start arguing that these nerfs are unjustified in terms of pve and will put us at the bottom of the charts. You as a player not adapting to changes in a class will put you at the bottom.
Edited by Briyan on 3/8/2013 12:47 PM PST
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90 Orc Monk
12345
Raid bots would disagree with you

Monks are now #8 overall for dps as per raidbot

Referencing raidbots on the first week of a new patch? Really?
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90 Blood Elf Monk
3120
I was really upset when they hotfixed the damage done by Tiger Stance and never made any mention of it on anything official (Ghostcrawler made mention of it on Twitter, but that was it).
My personal opinion? I don't mind nerfs. . .on any class. As long as they have tested it (PTR) for long enough to see the overall effects, and agree it's necessary, then I am willing to take it. As GC has said before, "This game pays my mortgage. I think I take it way more seriously than most of you." That's a very valid point. Look, not all classes can be perfectly equal, balancing-wise. And that's how it should be. I feel a much larger sense of accomplishment when I drop someone as a monk then when I do on my 90 mage. The skillcap for this class is, if not the highest, one of the highest in the game. As long as they are close enough to keep classes competitive, I can deal.
However, like I mentioned above, when they make a major change like they did (10% less damage is a huge nerf) and never mention it. . .that makes me mad. I would just like to see some official response to such a massive nerf and why it wasn't put in the patch during all the testing if it is so important.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
3120
03/08/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Brewsly
Raid bots would disagree with you

Monks are now #8 overall for dps as per raidbot

Referencing raidbots on the first week of a new patch? Really?

I agree. Not a great reference so close to release.
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Ultimately though, it still doesnt not address the argument of why our new spell translates into a Direct DPS reduction when used against the target you are currently attacking. Mechanically this is a bull!@#$ strategy for the devs to use to discourage single target use. If anything it should not effect your specials, the marginal increase in damage from splitting your autoattack into 2x60% sources does not justify 40% reduction in Chi attacks. The ability has the potential but again they rubbed off all the luster
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in a PvP setting, the best use of the spell seems to be an early DoT. lets you have a !@#$ty version of ur autoattack up unless they quicky murder ur illusion. The illusions are still killable so its not unmanageable for anyone. what is unnecessary is the damage reduction id the spirit is not going to mimic your attacks. Ignore the idea of damage increase using 2 sources, what is wrong here is the reduction. it is not neccessary especially when considering the nerf to tiger stance . In fact the nerf to tiger stance would be more just if you could use this ability without any sort of direct penalty when using single target
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90 Night Elf Monk
13585
Monks didn't receive a nerf to overall damage when you consider the whole package of adjustments in 5.2. In 5.1, monks had high sustained damage but poor burst, lacked a real cleave ability, and had gear scaling and GCD problems (especially during hero) stemming from the truly awful mastery that was Combo Breaker.

In 5.2, we got a reworked mastery system in Bottled Fury, which largely resolved our burst, mastery, and GCD-capping problems, and we got Storm, Earth, and Fire to remedy our lack of a cleave.

Monks didn't need a boost to overall damage; we needed situational, scaling, and quality-of-life improvements. We got them, but they resulted in a pretty substantial buff to damage as well. Mechanically, most monks lost only about 5-10% combo breaker chance (which was often wasted anyway due to the aforementioned GCD-capping problems) but gained a massively more powerful Tigerseye Brew that also charges up faster and can be delayed for an opportune moment (due to stacking to 20), and our level 30 abilities are now a part of our regular rotation because they cost only a single GCD. Accordingly, we took a roughly 12% (not 15% - damage modifiers are multiplicative, not additive) nerf to our sustained damage to balance out all the new mechanics.

Ideally, our damage in a Patchwerk/training dummy situation should remain about the same as in 5.1, but our damage in any given real-world fight should improve because we're better able to adapt to the circumstances of any particular encounter. This assumes skillful play, and the skillcap on Windwalker definitely increased with this patch. If you don't like the idea of having to work harder for your DPS, then perhaps you should choose a different class. I don't mean that as an insult; it's simply a fact that monks are build around being a complicated class to play successfully.

The sky is not falling.


/slow clap

The sky is not falling.


And on the cover of the guide was: Don't panic
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