10/25 Man loot

90 Orc Death Knight
13665
So, I understand 25 mans were dying, and they needed more incentive because it is more work to keep one going. But blizzard is going about this ALL wrong. Now they are gearing up almost double as fast because 10 man end up having to DE half of their gear, and never get thundeforged and minimum of 2 items per boss thunderforged in 25 man. 25 man also very rarely DE's anything.

Then on top of that I found out about the t15 token changes, where it isn't a guaranteed drop in 10 man anymore, 0-2 tokens can drop, and in 25 2-4 tokens can drop. Which puts double RNG into tier, making it especially bad for 10 man cause they can continuously get zero tier. On top of that 10 man is tuned much tighter then 25. 1 Person messes up your likely to wipe unless you really outgear the content. It seems blizzard is trying to completely revive 25 mans and put 10 mans in its grave..
Edited by Zulagore on 3/9/2013 2:10 AM PST
90 Tauren Druid
19270
03/09/2013 02:10 AMPosted by Zulagore
On top of that 10 man is tuned much tighter then 25. 1 Person messes up your likely to wipe unless you really outgear the content.


That for a start is false.

The difficulties seem to be simiilar on both modes so stop complaining. One person dies on a 25 man can wipe the raid. Its not as simple as you think.

03/09/2013 02:10 AMPosted by Zulagore
Then on top of that I found out about the t15 token changes, where it isn't a guaranteed drop in 10 man anymore, 0-2 tokens can drop, and in 25 2-4 tokens can drop.


So run 25s if you want guarenteed loot. There comes a point where 10 man should not have all the advantages. Easier to organise, less people to have drama with, less people to have to herd during raid..... etc. Makes it easier to all be on the same page.

25s take more organisation, especially during fights. More people to screw up the mechanics and wipe you... more people to have to assign jobs in fights that require it. So they get a bit less loot rng.

So what? If loot is your be all and end all... join a 25 man raid. If clearing content is what you're aiming at... does it really matter which format you are in and what loot drops or not?
90 Human Priest
16220
Just be glad they didn't go back to 25 loot being better than 10 loot.

Maintaining a 25 man raid team requires significantly more work than maintaining a 10. I don't see the issue in rewarding them for their effort.
10 Draenei Monk
11065
03/09/2013 02:34 AMPosted by Illucia
Just be glad they didn't go back to 25 loot being better than 10 loot.


That didn't bother me as much as having certain slots stuff only drop in 10 or 25 man. Want the caster trinket? 25 man only. Want a helm? 10 man only.
90 Goblin Mage
6225
So you would rather deny people the ability to do a certain kind of raiding? No thanks. You're going to have to make some sacrifices for the greater good.
Community Manager
Then on top of that I found out about the t15 token changes, where it isn't a guaranteed drop in 10 man anymore, 0-2 tokens can drop, and in 25 2-4 tokens can drop. Which puts double RNG into tier, making it especially bad for 10 man cause they can continuously get zero tier. On top of that 10 man is tuned much tighter then 25. 1 Person messes up your likely to wipe unless you really outgear the content. It seems blizzard is trying to completely revive 25 mans and put 10 mans in its grave..

Having 0 tier tokens drop for 10 person raid groups was unintended. We're currently looking to address this in a coming hotfix similar to the one that had been implemented for 25 person raid groups.

From Patch 5.2 Hotfixes - March 7:
•The appropriate number of tier tokens should now drop for 25-player normal and heroic difficulties.
90 Draenei Shaman
17405
03/09/2013 02:10 AMPosted by Zulagore
On top of that 10 man is tuned much tighter then 25.
Ignorance isn't going to get you anywhere. 10s are tuned appropriately for 10 people wearing gear one would reasonably acquire in 10 player raids - as such, 10 heroics tend to require lower gear checks than 25 heroics. There are cases where 10s are tougher for those appropriately geared, generally due to majority of the raid performing critical roles vs. a smaller percentage in 25 (Lei Shi), and there are cases where 25s are tougher for those appropriately geared, generally where space is an issue or the mechanics are doubled (Baleroc) or one person making a mistake is a raid wipe (Spirit Kings).

Yeah, 10 man loot sucks compared to 25 loot, thems the breaks. 25s need advantages or they will die.
90 Draenei Shaman
17405
are you serious , have a look at all the fights in t14, 25man heroic is easier an nearlly every single one.

eg. Elegon , Sha of fear.
I've done them all on both settings. I have a pretty good idea where 10s are harder and where 25s are harder.
Edited by Ashunera on 3/9/2013 3:38 AM PST
90 Gnome Warlock
12125
Should just get rid of 25 man raiding, TBH.

You did it with 40 man, 25 mans are a dying thing.

If anything, shift them to 15 man. The guilds who have issues (which even Blizzard has said very few exist) can split the group into 15 and 10 man.
90 Worgen Rogue
13105
03/09/2013 03:22 AMPosted by Ashunera
On top of that 10 man is tuned much tighter then 25.
Ignorance isn't going to get you anywhere. 10s are tuned appropriately for 10 people wearing gear one would reasonably acquire in 10 player raids - as such, 10 heroics tend to require lower gear checks than 25 heroics. There are cases where 10s are tougher for those appropriately geared, generally due to majority of the raid performing critical roles vs. a smaller percentage in 25 (Lei Shi), and there are cases where 25s are tougher for those appropriately geared, generally where space is an issue or the mechanics are doubled (Baleroc) or one person making a mistake is a raid wipe (Spirit Kings).

Yeah, 10 man loot sucks compared to 25 loot, thems the breaks. 25s need advantages or they will die.


I completly disagree with the 25 man need incentive or theyll die, ppl raid the size they prefer and if ppl arent simpy raiding 25 anymore its because they dont like that raid size and throwing loot on everyone who does 25 and giving 10s the shaft isnt gona make the majority of the raiders happy at all.

On wrath I raided 25 for obvious reasons and always hatted it, wishing I could simply do the much more fun (imo) 10 mans and not be gimpped lootwise, like me more tham half of the WoW comunity felt the same and the result is when ppl could go do 10 man freely they went, so stop trying to "save" 25s, the raiders that raid this size do it cause they like 25s (or because they find it more prestigious wich is a relic of the past but most of the WoW comunity still has this view) not because loot drop in droves. Besides 25s already had enought incentives they dropped more gear per person and had alot more ppl to actualy use the egar that dropped rather tham having caster leather beeing DEd cause you dont have anyone that can use it on your 10 man...
90 Tauren Druid
19270
If anything, shift them to 15 man. The guilds who have issues (which even Blizzard has said very few exist) can split the group into 15 and 10 man.


You have 11 classes, and 34 specs.

Nuking the raid size down will marginalise a lot of these viable specs. You see it in 10 man already... it's more efficient to do 1 melee 4 ranged dps than it is to balance it out or go melee heavy.

This is why 25 mans exist and cannot be changed, it's so then classes aren't marginalised. 10 man is just too small to cope with expansion of class and spec choice. 15 man is also too small...

25s are at the limit of how small they can really be without cutting off a large portion of players from raiding. (no LFR does not count)
52 Gnome Warlock
765
Now they are gearing up almost double as fast because 10 man end up having to DE half of their gear, and never get thundeforged and minimum of 2 items per boss thunderforged in 25 man. 25 man also very rarely DE's anything.


25's always had a loot advantage over 10's. Why Blizzard thinks it will fix things this time I don't know. However, one of your points has me wondering something; if 25's are back to having guaranteed higher ilvl loot over 10ms like they did in Wrath (via 1/3rd of their drops being thunderforged 100% of the time as the OP claims), then why weren't 10ms tuned down to compensate for the difference in ilvl reward as would be appropriate in that situation?

Surely they're not going to repeat the mistake of the Firelands legendary, where 25's could fit their entire roster with one before 10s ever saw their first because of the RNG driven nature of the 10m drops vs the 25m's guaranteed drop, because that would be a really dumb thing for the developers to do.
90 Draenei Shaman
17405
What I can tell you is that a blanket statement "10s are harder" or "25s are harder" is completely incorrect. As I said, some fights on 10 require more players with personal responsibility to succeed, but a fight like Wind Lord or Spirit Kings is a lot harder on 25 because you have 2.5 times as many people who could trigger a Wind Bomb or shield and wipe the raid.

10s, however, require far less logistically, setting things up within the raid (herding cats) and maintaining the guild through recruitment and guild bank demands and handing out loot fairly and maintaining a constructive and pleasant atmosphere. The extra work that goes into a 25 player raid absolutely should come with better rewards.

I completly disagree with the 25 man need incentive or theyll die, ppl raid the size they prefer and if ppl arent simpy raiding 25 anymore its because they dont like that raid size and throwing loot on everyone who does 25 and giving 10s the shaft isnt gona make the majority of the raiders happy at all.
You can't disagree with a fact.

Many people don't do 10s because they like it more. They do 10s because it's easier to maintain.

Some people prefer 10s, some prefer 25s. Nobody has numbers on which setting the majority prefers.

Take my previous guild, for instance, back in Cataclysm. Like many 25 player guilds, we were struggling to maintain a full roster and ended up breaking apart after recruitment was unable to keep up to attrition. 20 people were then without enough players to raid 25 mans. About half of those players formed a 10 man, some of which preferred 25s but chose to take the easy path. The other half left the game.

10s being "equal" to 25s robs countless people who prefer 25s of an actual choice because there is more work involved, and most people don't want to do more work "just because". Hence the most basic principle of living life - more effort should and usually does provide more reward... but that was not the case throughout Cataclysm and 5.0 when it came to raiding.

then why weren't 10ms tuned down to compensate for the difference in ilvl reward as would be appropriate in that situation?
10s (heroics especially) have long been tuned for lower item levels than 25 (and I know this because I've run both settings concurrently since this system came into existence in T11). This was not really the case in tier 11, but has been for every raid since.
Edited by Ashunera on 3/9/2013 3:49 AM PST
90 Draenei Hunter
18370
are you serious , have a look at all the fights in t14, 25man heroic is easier an nearlly every single one.

eg. Elegon , Sha of fear.

are you serious , have a look at all the fights in t14, 10man heroic is easier an nearlly every single one.

eg. Will of the Emperor, Blade Lord

See what I did there?
Both raid sizes have their ups and down, but both are pretty similar overall. Obviously you can never get 100% balance but this tier has been pretty close.
90 Draenei Hunter
18370
03/09/2013 03:41 AMPosted by Bomdanil
if 25's are back to having guaranteed higher ilvl loot over 10ms like they did in Wrath (via 1/3rd of their drops being thunderforged 100% of the time as the OP claims), then why weren't 10ms tuned down to compensate for the difference in ilvl reward as would be appropriate in that situation?

That isn't a thing, we've had bosses where 0 thunderforged have dropped. Drop rate is higher apparently, but its still rng.
52 Gnome Warlock
765
Just be glad they didn't go back to 25 loot being better than 10 loot.

Maintaining a 25 man raid team requires significantly more work than maintaining a 10. I don't see the issue in rewarding them for their effort.


Their effort has nothing to do with the raiding content. Their difficulties are entirely driven by external logistical difficulties (namely that next to no one wants to deal with the hassle of running them). Any attempts to "help" 25's should be done where the problems are, not by going back to 25's being the only raiding format.

Raid groups are struggling like hell as it is on smaller and lower ranked servers as it is now, even with 10m raids as a viable alternative. An attempt to regress to the lesser state of only having 1 raiding format would be literally game breaking for the last vestiges of raiding community on 2/3rds of the current servers due to their lack of player pool.
52 Gnome Warlock
765
That isn't a thing, we've had bosses where 0 thunderforged have dropped. Drop rate is higher apparently, but its still rng.


I'm glad to hear that is not the case. I neither have the desire nor the extra cash flow I'd need to move 8 characters off realm just so I can run progression raiding on a server that has competent people on it, so this is good news for me.

I did try to make it clear that I was only voicing concern if the situation that the OP laid out was true, so hopefully nobody comes in screaming about how I was just jumping to conclusions rather than making a simple "if-then-else" statement.
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