10/25 Man loot

90 Draenei Shaman
17405
03/09/2013 03:52 AMPosted by Bomdanil
Any attempts to "help" 25's should be done where the problems are, not by going back to 25's being the only raiding format.
Got any ideas? I've never heard a good one.

03/09/2013 03:52 AMPosted by Bomdanil
An attempt to regress to the lesser state of only having 1 raiding format
10s providing lesser rewards is not a "lesser state of only having 1 raiding format".

It's being rewarded appropriately for your effort.

You can spend no time in game other than queueing and playing and acquire a 502.
You can spend some time in game with a few friends and acquire a 522 with a small chance at a 528.
You can spend some time in game by coordinating a lot of friends and acquire more 522s and a higher chance at 528s.
You can spend a lot of time in game with a few friends and acquire 535 with a small chance at 541s.
You can spend a lot of time in game by coordinating a lot of friends and acquire more 535s and a higher chance at 541s.

Now I agree with server population imbalance needing attention. It's a problem that Blizzard owes its playerbase to solve, you won't hear me argue with that, but more effort (regardless of where the effort is placed) should equal more reward.
73 Gnome Warlock
875
03/09/2013 03:36 AMPosted by Waraila
This is why 25 mans exist and cannot be changed, it's so then classes aren't marginalised. 10 man is just too small to cope with expansion of class and spec choice. 15 man is also too small...


25's as a format never really made sense to me. There've been 40m, 20m, 10m, with 25m's as the outlier. I've always wanted to know why exactly Blizzard didn't just split the raids and go with the size they both knew would work (due to ZG and AQ20 in classic being successes) and would scale properly up from the 10m introductory raid. I'm not disparaging the format by any means, and I don't want it to go away for those that enjoy it (though I'd admit to preferring they go away over 10ms being removed as a progression format), but yeah... never really made much sense to have that kind of split.
90 Tauren Druid
19270
never really made much sense to have that kind of split.


Probably so then you could fit more DPS in. A lot of the problems with the lack of people raiding is the healing and tank situations. A 25 man can field up to 3 tanks and 7 healers for a complex fight whilst still leaving plenty of room for dps.

On the flip side, if you have 2 tanks and 3 healers, that leaves only 5 dps slots availible.. and with ranged being more desirable that leaves melee classes rather left out.

20 mans couldn't cope with that kind of split either, nor 15... because it'd mean less dps slots where most people in game play dps over tanks. You'd have a lot of people cut out from raiding due to this... which is again why the raiding scene has dwindled.

you need 2 or 3 times the tanks to allow the same number of people to raid, as 1 25 man does. It's logistics.
73 Gnome Warlock
875
Now I agree with server population imbalance needing attention. It's a problem that Blizzard owes its playerbase to solve, you won't hear me argue with that, but more effort (regardless of where the effort is placed) should equal more reward.


Give the RL and his 2-3 other cohorts a cookie basket then, since they're the only ones actually putting in any extra work.

Got any ideas? I've never heard a good one.


There have been serveral, but two of the best ones would be to open up free server and faction transfers so that players can move to servers with healthy 25m populations (this won't happen because Blizzard isn't going to be dumb enough to give something away for free when people are willing to pay several hundred dollars in server and faction hopping just to find a guild that works for them), and opening up current content raids for cross-realm participation if the raid is being run as a 25m group (which Blizzard won't do because I've no idea why; some handwaving nonsense about "the spirit of the game" or some other irrational nonsense).
73 Gnome Warlock
875
03/09/2013 04:08 AMPosted by Waraila
On the flip side, if you have 2 tanks and 3 healers, that leaves only 5 dps slots availible.. and with ranged being more desirable that leaves melee classes rather left out.


Because of how tight DPS timers are in 10m most fights without a mandatory tank swap will run 1 tank with 2 healers. Fight's like Shekzeer are the exception, rather than the rule.

03/09/2013 04:08 AMPosted by Waraila
20 mans couldn't cope with that kind of split either, nor 15... because it'd mean less dps slots where most people in game play dps over tanks. You'd have a lot of people cut out from raiding due to this... which is again why the raiding scene has dwindled.


This is the result of how few tanks a run actually requires. Outside of Stone Guard (and even then I'm not entirely sure), there hadn't been a genuine 3+ tank fight in 25's since the end of BC. If DPS requirements were lowered substantially to support the role of a third tank then that would be feasible. However, Blizzard never will because any attempt to implement such a fight would get deconstructed to permit a 2 tank rotation in order to take advantage of the reduced DPS check.
Edited by Bomdanil on 3/9/2013 4:18 AM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
17405
Probably so then you could fit more DPS in. A lot of the problems with the lack of people raiding is the healing and tank situations. A 25 man can field up to 3 tanks and 7 healers for a complex fight whilst still leaving plenty of room for dps.

On the flip side, if you have 2 tanks and 3 healers, that leaves only 5 dps slots availible.. and with ranged being more desirable that leaves melee classes rather left out.

20 mans couldn't cope with that kind of split either, nor 15... because it'd mean less dps slots where most people in game play dps over tanks. You'd have a lot of people cut out from raiding due to this... which is again why the raiding scene has dwindled.

you need 2 or 3 times the tanks to allow the same number of people to raid, as 1 25 man does. It's logistics.
This is basically why the "emergence" of 10s was bad for the game.

Many players don't like the added responsibility of playing a tank or a healer (hence the healer shortage in a DPS-friendly LFR 25 setting, and a shortage of both in the 5 player setting). The same kind of responsibility can be applied to raid leadership and coordination. Many current 10 player guild leaders are or once were 25 player guild leaders. Downsizing from 25 to 10 means that 15 people are without a tank and without a leader, meaning that more people need to step up to take the roles of responsibility to keep having the same number of people raiding... which doesn't happen, resulting in fewer people actually raiding with a guild.
90 Tauren Druid
19270
Because of how tight DPS timers are in 10m most fights without a mandatory tank swap will run 1 tank with 2 healers. Fight's like Shekzeer are the exception, rather than the rule.


Tight enrage timers exist on 25 as well you realise? They aren't mutually exclusive. One person dies on spiritbinder? Wipe called because you won't meet the enrage. One person screws up on amber shaper? Wipe and more fustrating as you have to have 25 people learn the construct over 10. Over double the potential wipe points.

You need interrupt rotations on wind lord. 6 people on 25 man and 1 floating backup given there is a potential for both interrupters on the same add to be locked in amber if you're not careful etc. One person screws up on windbombs though and it's a wipe regardless. 25 man has less room to spread out over 10s.

Difficulty is relative. You can't simply state 10s are harder than 25s because that is flat out false.

Downsizing from 25 to 10 means that 15 people are without a tank and without a leader, meaning that more people need to step up to take the roles of responsibility to keep having the same number of people raiding... which doesn't happen, resulting in fewer people actually raiding with a guild.


Exactly.

However, Blizzard never will because any attempt to implement such a fight would get deconstructed to permit a 2 tank rotation in order to take advantage of the reduced DPS check.


H Will is a 4 tank fight on 25. H empress is 3, H amber shaper is also 3...

Point is though they have to be careful about doing this because multiple tank fights can't be translated well into 10s. Which makes 25 man harder by default using more tanks to cope over 10 man...
Edited by Waraila on 3/9/2013 4:20 AM PST
73 Gnome Warlock
875
Tight enrage timers exist on 25 as well you realise?


Yes? I don't know why you feel I'd be ignorant of there existance elsewhere just because I was commenting on their existance in a particular context. Even LFR has an enrage timer.

Difficulty is relative. You can't simply state 10s are harder than 25s because that is flat out false.


I didn't say which format is harder, because I know that it's the fight that determines that rather than the format.
90 Draenei Shaman
17405
Because of how tight DPS timers are in WoW
Fixed. Meeting numbers checks is a challenge in both settings.

03/09/2013 04:10 AMPosted by Bomdanil
and opening up current content raids for cross-realm participation if the raid is being run as a 25m group
This won't make people feel like their extra effort to run 25s is being rewarded.

03/09/2013 04:10 AMPosted by Bomdanil
Give the RL and his 2-3 other cohorts a cookie basket then, since they're the only ones actually putting in any extra work.
It's true not everyone does more work in a 25, but it's certainly more than 3-4 people total in most cases. There tends to be a lot of discussion and coordination in 25s among everyone that doesn't exist in 10s due to, well, there being 60% fewer people to coordinate and discuss things with.

How do you determine who those putting extra effort in are? The game can't do that. The game has to assume people are putting in similar effort, or the "extra rewards" could be gamed or manipulated or cheated or something. 25s simply flat out need better rewards across the board. It will not work any other way.
73 Gnome Warlock
875
03/09/2013 04:23 AMPosted by Ashunera
How do you determine who those putting extra effort in are? The game can't do that. The game has to assume people are putting in similar effort, or the "extra rewards" could be gamed or manipulated or cheated or something.


Which is why increasing rewards in content for doing the same work isn't how you address the issue. You address the issue by fixing the areas that make 25's harder to put together and maintain so that the logistics between the two formats are much closer than they are today.
90 Draenei Mage
17060
Fixed. Meeting numbers checks is a challenge in both settings.


Tier 14 was the first time this was remotely true for 10man fyi. 10man "dps checks" throughout all of cata were a huge joke.

They are alot better balanced now for sure though.
90 Troll Priest
17210
03/09/2013 02:10 AMPosted by Zulagore
Now they are gearing up almost double as fast because 10 man end up having to DE half of their gear, and never get thundeforged and minimum of 2 items per boss thunderforged in 25 man. 25 man also very rarely DE's anything.


Only half? Such luxury. Try disenchanting 90% of the items from the first 6 bosses because Caster Leather is dropping from every boss and you have no Druid/Monk.

Edit: On the plus side, I guess we got lots of Haunting Spirits to sell.. oh wait, dead realm.

Just to keep tally, we've had the following leather drops so far in the first week:
Hood of Smoldering Flesh (Spirit Leather Helmet)
Deeproot Treads (Spirit Leather Boots)
Bindings of Multiplicative Strikes (Agility Leather Bracers)
Spaulders of Dinomancy (Spirit Leather Shoulders)
Infinitely Conducting Bracers (Spirit Leather Bracers)

Fully expecting to see more Leather drops next raid night. We've actually gotten more usable loot from bonus rolls than actual drops, which I find hilarious.
Edited by Lothrik on 3/9/2013 4:51 AM PST
73 Gnome Warlock
875
Only half? Such luxury. Try disenchanting 90% of the items from the first 6 bosses because Caster Leather is dropping from every boss and you have no Druid/Monk.


We had to do that in Dragon Soul and Firelands. The priest and locks had enough tier to field 4 off-sets, but everyone else was still stuck in 378's or VP off-sets.
90 Draenei Shaman
17405
Which is why increasing rewards in content for doing the same work isn't how you address the issue. You address the issue by fixing the areas that make 25's harder to put together and maintain so that the logistics between the two formats are much closer than they are today.
The logistics aren't solved by there being more people available though. Even if there are infinite people available, there's more work to be done in 25s. There needs to be a reason to do the extra work, and the extra work is not just finding enough people. It is one concern on ~70-80% of servers, but it's not the main or only concern. It's coordinating the people once you have them, both in and out of raids.

Rewarding the leadership of 25s cannot be done. Can not. It must be equal for everyone involved.
73 Gnome Warlock
875
03/09/2013 04:43 AMPosted by Ashunera
The logistics aren't solved by there being more people available though.


Considering "how do we recruit people to fill our raids and build a bench" is the lion's share of the issue with 25's decline at the present time, I'd say that while it won't solve everything it would be a significant benefit to 25m players (both those that want to run it, but can't and to those who do run it, but are struggling to fill holes in the roster).
8 Dwarf Priest
0
its far more interesting, imo, if we ask what psychological or social effect is reinforced by throwing tons more loot candy at 25's vs. what 10's receive.

because i would hazard to say the vast majority of the extra effort and responsibility required for the continued operation of a 25 man guild is shouldered by a group about the same size as exists in 10's. of course this is not always the case, and of course there are large guilds out there with effective delegation of responsibility. i don't actually know of any, but i assume they must exist. rather, i prefer not to rule out any possibility.

but in my experience it is teams about 1-4 people in size leading 10 mans, and basically the same thing in 25's. the same people, doing more work.

is more loot the appropriate reward for them? do they even benefit the most from the additional loot? wouldn't most of it go to the guild? So I wonder what it says to people, this being the case. Join 25's if you want to be carried to good gear? Maybe this is what people mean when they say 25's are easier. All else being equal, you're likely to get geared faster in a 25. So is that the reward management deserves for leading a 25-sized guild, to not only deal with the larger workload, but to be part of a system designed to attract to them more of the loot-centric players who prioritize "BiS" over teamwork or social cohesion?

Are people going to try and argue loot-centric players won't seek out the highest yield loot environments?

Or should we assume the people working at Blizz lead 25's, and use loot systems designed to gear up the officers first?

Either way, it seems suspicious how eagerly some people appear to favor this loot yield imbalance.

I don't really care for the idea of being a small cog in a big machine. Not fond of blending in to a crowd so large that if I didn't exist, hardly anyone would notice. Certainly it feels more rewarding to know that my effort and mental processes are at least a 10% slice of that victory pie, instead of only 4%. And yet, for my choice to be about 2.5x more important to the outcome of any boss battle, I'm being told that choosing the path of greater personal responsibility is about 2.5x less likely to be rewarded, insofar as the method by which dead bosses reward players (i.e. items/gear). 10's actually gear up far slower than 2.5x less than an equivalently progressed 25-m guild, but let's keep it simple for now.

What does that say to me? Well it seems like it is saying authority likes sheep. The more sheep, the merrier. Because after all, what is authority but the legacy through which the few tell the many what's good for them.

Do people remember it differently? Those who raid 25's, is each new person you meet in a guild that size a magical connection, full of vibrancy? Its not only so much more noise?

But I guess to sum up, living has taught me there are a lot of sheep in this world. And I don't like to play with sheep. Even if some people above the GM's try to make it overwhelmingly attractive to play with sheep, all that situation is going to do is attract more blatantly docile and wanton sheep-like personalities. All that accomplishes is to incentivize abuses of power. Power gets really stressed out when surrounded by lots of sheep, you see.
90 Draenei Shaman
17405
Considering "how do we recruit people to fill our raids and build a bench" is the lion's share of the issue with 25's decline at the present time, I'd say that while it won't solve everything it would be a significant benefit to 25m players (both those that want to run it, but can't and to those who do run it, but are struggling to fill holes in the roster).
"how do we recruit people to fill our raids and build a bench" is the lion's share of the issue, but that issue isn't because people are lacking. There are more than enough players on most servers to run 25s. The issue is finding people willing to put in the extra effort to do 25s. Because there is no meaningful reward for doing so.

It's an effort vs. reward issue. The "effort" can range from coordination with a larger number of other players, to social pressures, to helping in the recruitment effort, to silly things that people don't even understand is to their benefit - for many players, it's hard to deal with the fact that you might not be the first person to get Loshan (even if you might see two or three in 25 before a 10 gets their first).

The issue isn't that there aren't enough players for 25s. The issue is that there aren't enough players willing to put in the extra effort. "I prefer 25s, but they aren't worth the hassle". This is the key concept. They aren't worth it over the easier-to-do setting. Not necessarily easier to execute setting - but the vastly easier to plan setting. When "equalizing" 10s and 25s, Blizzard should have introduced shared lockouts and had the same gear available but preserved the item level disparity between the two settings (10 man having a 251 Deathbringer's Will for example). This is ultimately the fairest way for things to be, but the problem is that their changes introduced in Cataclysm were a severe over-correction and returning to the appropriate balance is being met with vast-but-uneducated opposition.
73 Gnome Warlock
875
03/09/2013 05:07 AMPosted by Ashunera
There are more than enough players on most servers to run 25s.


If you count people who don't raid, yes. If you count actual raiders though? No, there really are not enough players on most servers to field a 25m, let alone several.

The issue is finding people willing to put in the extra effort to do 25s.


...which opening up the current content to X-realm grouping for the 25m format does. I'm confused as to why you feel this wouldn't work or be a benefit.

03/09/2013 05:07 AMPosted by Ashunera
to silly things that people don't even understand is to their benefit


You'll have to give an example. There wasn't anything about 25m raiding that actually benefitted me, and I only ran it because it was the sole means of raiding progressively at the time.

The issue is that there aren't enough players willing to put in the extra effort. "I prefer 25s, but they aren't worth the hassle". This is the key concept.


So we address the hassle. One of those hassles is actually being able to field the raid in the first place. It might be a step down an (arguably) long road, but it's the smarter step to take than their current belief that throwing gear at people will actually fix anything (that whole thing about repeating the same actions in the hopes of getting different results applies here).

03/09/2013 05:07 AMPosted by Ashunera
Blizzard should have introduced shared lockouts and had the same gear available but preserved the item level disparity between the two settings (10 man having a 251 Deathbringer's Will for example).


No, Blizzard absolutely should not have done this. Equalising the loot tables and raid difficulties was the right call to make, and it irritates me beyond words when people try to claim otherwise just because they don't feel their favoured format isn't special enough to them anymore. If your argument suggests that 25's only lasted as long as they did because they were the only progression path for players then you know what? It's the more likely scenario that the reason 25's have been on such a rapid decline is due to a genuine dislike for the format itself within the majority of the raiding population, and being hamfistedly forced back into it as the only means of progressing would be met with a hellacious firestorm from the other 75-80% of the community who aren't interested in losing their access to end game content just to soothe the egos of people they'll never meet nor play with.
90 Draenei Shaman
17405
03/09/2013 04:48 AMPosted by Kolas
I don't really care for the idea of being a small cog in a big machine.
You can surely see the other side of the coin, you seem reasonably intelligent.

Why do people seek fame?
It's the desire of many to stand out from a crowd. 25 is a larger crowd than 10, so standing out in a 25 is significantly more satisfying. You had to do something at least 2.5 times more awesome to stand out to the same degree. Prestige, ego. A small group does not offer these things over a larger group.

Why do team sports tend to have a larger following than individual sports?
Because of the unpredictable human element. An individual can accomplish great things - a team can accomplish far greater. Working together and accomplishing something that only a great number of well-coordinated people can accomplish is an amazing thing. There is nothing more difficult in this world than the cooperation of a large number of people.

There comes a point in a "team" large enough where you simply become a number, where you no longer know much of what you're even a part of, but that number is larger than 25.

because i would hazard to say the vast majority of the extra effort and responsibility required for the continued operation of a 25 man guild is shouldered by a group about the same size as exists in 10's. of course this is not always the case, and of course there are large guilds out there with effective delegation of responsibility. i don't actually know of any, but i assume they must exist. rather, i prefer not to rule out any possibility.
I can't speak for everyone, but this has always been the case in my guilds. My current guild? We have an exceptional leader, but he has exceptional support from most of the guild.
73 Gnome Warlock
875
03/09/2013 05:30 AMPosted by Ashunera
It's the desire of many to stand out from a crowd. 25 is a larger crowd than 10, so standing out in a 25 is significantly more satisfying.


I don't care about standing out in a crowd because I'm not driven by ego. I want to do my role to the best of my ability, be secure in the knowledge that the people I bring with me are as capable of doing the same, and to know that my time isn't going to be wasted by people being idiots because they can hide in the anonymity of being in a large, faceless crowd.

25m raiding doesn't offer me that, and unless a tank spot opens up in a guild like Stage Clear, it likely won't ever offer me that.
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