10/25 Man loot

100 Draenei Shaman
17750
03/09/2013 05:26 AMPosted by Bomdanil
You'll have to give an example.
I gave an example.
25 man guild kills Tsulong.
Loshan drops.
Mage Bob, Warlock Joe scream YESSSS.
Warlock Joe wins the Loshan.
Mage Bob cries. Weak minded Mage Bob /gquits, he obviously deserved that item.
25 man guild kills Tsulong again.
Loshan drops again, two this time.
Holy Paladin Fred wins Loshan, 2nd gets disenchanted.

10 man guild kills Tsulong.
Loshan doesn't drop.
10 man guild kills Tsulong.
Loshan doesn't drop.
Mage Bob joins guild.
10 man guild kills Tsulong.
Loshan doesn't drop.
10 man guild kills Tsulong.
Loshan drops and Mage Bob wins it.

Having a larger sample size will (eventually) favor 25s as far as loot drops go. There's less room to be hurt by bad luck. Early on in a tier of raiding, a 10 player guild with any semblance of balance in its ranks will make use of most of the drops, when it matters the most. The problem I'm describing is that people will irrationally believe that X item belongs to them and will pout when they don't get it, and X coveted item is far less likely to go to someone else in the 10 player setting even though there is more of a guarantee they'll get it in 25. In other words, 25s have added social pressures that 10s don't have to deal with, even if the pressure is generated by ignorance rather than reality.

...which opening up the current content to X-realm grouping for the 25m format does. I'm confused as to why you feel this wouldn't work or be a benefit.
It wouldn't be enough of a benefit because there isn't enough of a point in doing 25s. That's the issue. The incentive to make the extra effort required to do 25s has not been present for quite some time. Number of people on a server does not change this, most continue to run 10s even on "top servers" because the extra effort is not rewarded enough.

No, Blizzard absolutely should not have done this. Equalising the loot tables and raid difficulties was the right call to make, and it irritates me beyond words when people try to claim otherwise just because they don't feel their favoured format isn't special enough to them anymore. If your argument suggests that 25's only lasted as long as they did because they were the only progression path for players then you know what? It's the more likely scenario that the reason 25's have been on such a rapid decline is due to a genuine dislike for the format itself within the majority of the raiding population, and being hamfistedly forced back into it as the only means of progressing would be met with a hellacious firestorm from the other 75-80% of the community who aren't interested in losing their access to end game content just to soothe the egos of people they'll never meet nor play with.
I'm not sure this even warrants a response to be honest, you have an astounding lack of objectivity with this paragraph.

The vast majority of people take the easy path to success whenever possible. If you disagree with this you are clueless. Everyone wants the advantage, everyone wants to be able to reach their goals as easily as possible. Why do 25s if you can get all the same stuff out of 10s, which require less effort?

You can not remove the significantly increased logistical difficulties of 25 player raiding.

It cannot be done. Larger teams require more effort than smaller teams. No changes or additions they make will change this fact of life. It cannot be done.

Many players prefer 25 because it feels more epic. Wars are not won by individuals. A part of it is perception - This guy is SO POWERFUL you need 25 people to take him down. Overcoming such a challenge and it being difficult to do so is exhilarating.

Blizzard has two options:

A - Incentivize 25 player raiding.
B - Let 25 player raiding die.

Which one is the best choice?
90 Troll Hunter
12955
I've raided both 10 and 25 man for quite a while.

Some people say 25's are harder b/c it takes more logistical work. This is true.

Others say 10's are harder b/c of lack of players, buffs, flexibility, etc.

I've found that mechanics are generally less forgiving in 10 man's. In most of my 25 man raids, we end up carrying one or two ppl, or someone dies and we have to finish the fight without them. In 10 man's if a single person dies or makes a big mistake it's almost always a raid wipe.

There were 1 or two fight were 25 man's were a tiny bit harder, but for the most part, 25's require less effort to down.

One of the major things that makes 25's easier is the complete coverage of classes, buffs, and raid CD's. In our 25 man runs, we would just continually keep rotating major CD's to keep our raid alive and mitigate damage. In 10 mans, this is not even an option. You only have 1 or 2 major CD's and you have to actually use them when the fight dictates.
100 Draenei Shaman
17750
03/09/2013 05:43 AMPosted by Bomdanil
I don't care about standing out in a crowd because I'm not driven by ego.
Everyone, to some extent, is driven by ego. Even you. It comes with being a human being.

If not, then why are you arguing?
12 Human Warrior
890
03/09/2013 03:31 AMPosted by Andruz
Ignorance isn't going to get you anywhere. 10s are tuned appropriately for 10 people wearing gear one would reasonably acquire in 10 player raids - as such, 10 heroics tend to require lower gear checks than 25 heroics. There are cases where 10s are tougher for those appropriately geared, generally due to majority of the raid performing critical roles vs. a smaller percentage in 25 (Lei Shi), and there are cases where 25s are tougher for those appropriately geared, generally where space is an issue or the mechanics are doubled (Baleroc) or one person making a mistake is a raid wipe (Spirit Kings).

Yeah, 10 man loot sucks compared to 25 loot, thems the breaks. 25s need advantages or they will die.


I completly disagree with the 25 man need incentive or theyll die, ppl raid the size they prefer and if ppl arent simpy raiding 25 anymore its because they dont like that raid size and throwing loot on everyone who does 25 and giving 10s the shaft isnt gona make the majority of the raiders happy at all.

On wrath I raided 25 for obvious reasons and always hatted it, wishing I could simply do the much more fun (imo) 10 mans and not be gimpped lootwise, like me more tham half of the WoW comunity felt the same and the result is when ppl could go do 10 man freely they went, so stop trying to "save" 25s, the raiders that raid this size do it cause they like 25s (or because they find it more prestigious wich is a relic of the past but most of the WoW comunity still has this view) not because loot drop in droves. Besides 25s already had enought incentives they dropped more gear per person and had alot more ppl to actualy use the egar that dropped rather tham having caster leather beeing DEd cause you dont have anyone that can use it on your 10 man...


Andruz, it is pretty much proven that 10 man raiding groups are far easier to organize and tune fights for. IMO, 25 man needs better loot period. That is the main incentive for it. That or just have 25 drop upgraded equipment. I think 10s and 25s need different physical raids, just me though.
12 Human Warrior
890
25 man raids put out like 4x the dps of a 10 man raid. was in a GH post a few years ago.
90 Troll Druid
14490
03/09/2013 02:10 AMPosted by Zulagore
where it isn't a guaranteed drop in 10 man anymore, 0-2 tokens can drop, and in 25 2-4 tokens can drop


That latter half was a pure assumption on your part. Prior to the fix posted about by Rygarius it was completely possible to have only 1 token drop on 25 man.
90 Dwarf Warrior
14635
The difficulties seem to be simiilar on both modes so stop complaining. One person dies on a 25 man can wipe the raid. Its not as simple as you think.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Throne_of_Thunder/Council_of_Elders/

10 man:
1309 kills, 32341 wipes, 3.9 % success.

25 man:
650 kills, 2216 wipes, 22.7 % success.

The same patterns repeat for most bosses up until the last handful where it evens out. And currently only the very good guilds are up to that 'last handful'.
Edited by Bladestorm on 3/9/2013 6:28 AM PST
95 Gnome Warlock
1985
I gave an example.


I asked you to give an example of something of "silly things that people don't even understand is to their benefit" that 25m raiding offers. What you posted is neither silly, nor an example of something that is to my benefit.

It wouldn't be enough of a benefit because there isn't enough of a point in doing 25s.


This is a circular argument.

Why aren't more people running 25m raids? Because it's too much hassle.

Why is it a hassle? Because recruiting and maintaining a roster of 35-40 players to cover the raid and bench team for raid nights is difficult due to lack of qualified players.

So lets fix the hassle." That won't work because people won't join 25m raiding teams.

Why won't they join 25m raiding teams? etc etc etc

Blizzard's been trying to use an ever increasingly large carrot to overcome a problem that has nothing to do with the reward structure as it exists today, and each time it fails they scratch their head and go "Must need a bigger carrot". However, the reason why it isn't working is because a lot of players who want to run 25's, but don't, are on servers where running 25ms is functionally impossible due to the available playerbase. If you fix this problem you get a much better grasp of just how bad off 25m raiding actually is, and can work from there to try and address issues (assuming there actually are any after that point).

You can not remove the significantly increased logistical difficulties of 25 player raiding.


You might not be able to remove the logistical requirements of running a raid, but you can certainly diminish them if you address the issues where they actually exist. 25's do not have a problem with gear acquisition (25's were already well ahead of 10's in this regard), nor in being the fastest way of upping one's ilvl (which this change does). Ergo, this attempt to use loot as the carrot is very likely to fail just as the ones before it did.

I'm not sure this even warrants a response to be honest, you have an astounding lack of objectivity with this paragraph.


And claiming that the only way to get an "epic" or truly enjoyable raid experience, and therefore the only valid way to raid, is in a 25m format was 100% objective? Please. I can respect the want to keep 25's from being removed as a format (which will never happen due to LFR and the majority of the world's top 5% playing exclusively in 25ms), but don't go blowing smoke in my direction and then get upset because I'm not flailing my arms around screaming that there's a fire in the room.

Yes, 25m's do need certain logistical issues addressed. No, I do not think those issues will be fixed by making 25ms the only progression format.

Yes, I do think 25's need to be rewarded for their time and efforts as well. No, I do not think that 25's should be over-incentivized just because certain players and one or two developers feel like they haven't earned their gold star if their preferred format isn't the only format.

Yes, I want 25's around for as long as they are sustainable (which isn't long given how the raiding population is either migrating or quiting). No, I don't want them to be kept alive well past that point at the expense of my ability to enjoy the game.

If not, then why are you arguing?


Because I don't agree with your position, and I'm hoping to change your mind just as you are attempting to change mine.
1 Night Elf Priest
0
Bugs are annoying and reading patch/hotfix notes is hard.
90 Human Mage
13720

http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Throne_of_Thunder/Council_of_Elders/

10 man:
1309 kills, 32341 wipes, 3.9 % success.

25 man:
650 kills, 2216 wipes, 22.7 % success.

The same patterns repeat for most bosses up until the last handful where it evens out. And currently only the very good guilds are up to that 'last handful'.


The only problem with these numbers is that due to the current structure of raiding that was implemented for Cataclysm you typically only have very serious and/or skilled players joining 25m guilds(or having any longevity) whereas 10m runs are much easier to throw together. This combined with the disparity in numbers between the 2 guilds and you get some interesting numbers. Bear in mind there are 10m groups that never got past 6/6MSV 2/6HoF for the previous tier whereas very few 25m guilds fail for that period of time due to the aforementioned reasons.
100 Tauren Shaman
9785
Should just get rid of 25 man raiding, TBH.

You did it with 40 man, 25 mans are a dying thing.

If anything, shift them to 15 man. The guilds who have issues (which even Blizzard has said very few exist) can split the group into 15 and 10 man.


Becuase you speak for the entire player base?

I and many (very many) players that I know hate 10 man raiding, it doesn't feel epic at all and very lonely.

To many people like me, where 25 man raiding are the last bastion of hope, would the spell the end of out interest in WoW.

And the reason that there more 10 mans than 25 mans is because it is much (MUCH) harder to organize and maintain a 25 man raid, not because 25 man are less fun. 25 man raids are direct descendents of the original WoW raiding, the heart of the game.
100 Night Elf Druid
11740
Sounds like another accidental on purpose change.
90 Human Mage
4825
I see a lot of QQ about 25m dying. 25m raiding, as a whole, isn't dying. The middle bracket of 25m raiding is what is dying. Many guilds that couldn't or can't compete on the 25m scale have simply chosen to move into the 10m arena and have an opportunity to get Realm First. This Feat of Strength had previously only been available to 25-man raids. Why sit in 3rd or 4th on your server, with a couple players acting like clowns and holding you back when you can split into a 10m and still have a shot at realm first?

Also, 10m have always been easier to run than 25m, especially when you only have to accommodate 10-12 people's schedules vs. 25-30 people. In several cases, its easier to run 2 and 3 10-man raids than 1 25-man raid simply because people need to be absent or want to play around their schedule (bc that option is now available).

Unfortunately, with the ease of making a 10-man guild and having really no incentive to run 25-man guild, people are reverting to doing things the "easy way". Blizzard isn't trying to push everyone back to 25-man raiding, but create a perk to those that put in the extra bit of effort to continue or form 25-man raids (just as they had in the past, but on a smaller scale).

For those of you that believe 25-man raiding is dying, even on the upper tiers, you may try pointing at Paragon as the example. Paragon followed the same path as SK Gaming, Death and Taxes, etc. They simply couldn't continue to raid at the level they had grown accustomed to and decided (since the option was now available) to continue as a 10-man group.

Other guilds have been put into similar situations, but have continued to press forward as a 25-man guild. In Cataclysm, you had Might of US-Turalyon + Fusion of US-Turalyon come together to form Supermassive of US-Turalyon. Both of these guilds were competitive for Top 10-100 positions in every tier. Together, they re-established themselves as the same competitive force. In MoP, we're seeing the same thing happen with vodka of US-Alterac Mountains and Exodus of US-Cho'gall. They have come together to form Exodus of US-Mal'Ganis. Both guilds finished T14 in the Top 5 in 25-man raiding and together it looks promising that they can do the same thing.

In summary, what we've seen is people move into the brackets they feel they can best compete in, plus those that were unable to previously compete (PUGs and less-stable starter guilds) can now at least appear on a highly recognized ranking system (Wowjutsu was nice, but can't be compared to the thoroughness or success GuildOx or WoWProgress have had). Those random PUG groups are now emerging as 10-man guilds, making the APPEARANCE of 10-man raiding grow, when they always existed. Guild Perks and Ranking websites have brought them together under a single name.
90 Human Mage
4825
03/09/2013 06:46 AMPosted by Bomdanil
I gave an example.

I asked you to give an example of something of "silly things that people don't even understand is to their benefit" that 25m raiding offers. What you posted is neither silly, nor an example of something that is to my benefit.
There are currently incentives to 25-man raiding that the average person can't or refuse to see.
  • 25-man can gear their entire raid faster and efficiently than a 10-man guild.
  • 25-man guilds with the same raiders, will generally disenchant less gear and put more of it to use during the initial gearing up period. Off-spec items are often available much quicker, building a deeper, more versatile raid group.

  • 25-man can solve attrition / replace individual raiders more easily than 10-man guilds since they only compose 4% of their raiding body vs. 10% of it.
  • A properly run guild will have an effective bench and an effective way of keeping the bench properly geared to fill into raid spots. If a key player leaves, its easier to bring their replacement in and gear-feed them for a week or two to bring them up to par.

  • With highly effective leaders, 25-man raid groups are actually easier to run.
  • Having had experience growing/running both 10m and 25m guilds ... at the same time, might I add (I was an officer in one and GL in the other, while my gf was the GL in one and a Sub-Raider in mine) ... it was easier to run the 25m because we simply managed a bench and ran players through the alt raid later in the week. In a 10m guild, players weren't as willing to be bench players and typically wanted to be "A-Team" or nothing, regardless that our "B-team" was better than the guild they left for. The player mindset was different from 10 to 25.

This is why 25-man guilds have typically dominated World Overall rankings. If you were to take the 25-man mindset to a 10-man guild, they could eliminate the only remaining perk (gearing) and surpass the 25-man guilds. Paragon has already proven this.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Their effort has nothing to do with the raiding content. Their difficulties are entirely driven by external logistical difficulties (namely that next to no one wants to deal with the hassle of running them). Any attempts to "help" 25's should be done where the problems are, not by going back to 25's being the only raiding format.


Though I agree, exaggerate much? 10s and 25s were both popular in Wrath.
90 Troll Shaman
12220
03/09/2013 07:50 AMPosted by Bozidar

I asked you to give an example of something of "silly things that people don't even understand is to their benefit" that 25m raiding offers. What you posted is neither silly, nor an example of something that is to my benefit.

This is why 25-man guilds have typically dominated World Overall rankings. If you were to take the 25-man mindset to a 10-man guild, they could eliminate the only remaining perk (gearing) and surpass the 25-man guilds. Paragon has already proven this.


Paragon dropped down to 10 man raiding because they could no longer compete in 25 man races. Mainly due to the difficulty of finding 25+ raiders. If they had been able to do so they would have continue to raid 25 man and continue to belittle 10 man raiding as they did in the past.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
With highly effective leaders, 25-man raid groups are actually easier to run.
Having had experience growing/running both 10m and 25m guilds ... at the same time, might I add (I was an officer in one and GL in the other, while my gf was the GL in one and a Sub-Raider in mine) ... it was easier to run the 25m because we simply managed a bench and ran players through the alt raid later in the week. In a 10m guild, players weren't as willing to be bench players and typically wanted to be "A-Team" or nothing, regardless that our "B-team" was better than the guild they left for. The player mindset was different from 10 to 25.


Most 25s don't really run alt raids, certainly not to the same level of the main raid.

I'd also argue that you don't need as many highly effective leaders in 10s. Much of the small details that exist on 25s simply aren't present on 10s, or have a lesser impact. An example is CD rotations. On 25s it's assumed that you have a bunch of CDs and can use them. On 10s they can't assume you have as many.

25-man can solve attrition / replace individual raiders more easily than 10-man guilds since they only compose 4% of their raiding body vs. 10% of it.
A properly run guild will have an effective bench and an effective way of keeping the bench properly geared to fill into raid spots. If a key player leaves, its easier to bring their replacement in and gear-feed them for a week or two to bring them up to par.


If that were really true and not just a statement based on eyeballing the percentages, then 25s wouldn't be dying. Attrition is pretty much THE major reason why the number of 25 man guilds has dwindled.

25-man can gear their entire raid faster and efficiently than a 10-man guild.
25-man guilds with the same raiders, will generally disenchant less gear and put more of it to use during the initial gearing up period. Off-spec items are often available much quicker, building a deeper, more versatile raid group.


Which apparently isn't much of an incentive given that there are less and less 25 man guilds around.
90 Human Mage
4825
Paragon dropped down to 10 man raiding because they could no longer compete in 25 man races. Mainly due to the difficulty of finding 25+ raiders. If they had been able to do so they would have continue to raid 25 man and continue to belittle 10 man raiding as they did in the past.
I think I already addressed this when I said:

Paragon followed the same path as SK Gaming, Death and Taxes, etc. They simply couldn't continue to raid at the level they had grown accustomed to and decided (since the option was now available) to continue as a 10-man group.
100 Human Warrior
17685
It's the desire of many to stand out from a crowd. 25 is a larger crowd than 10, so standing out in a 25 is significantly more satisfying.


I don't care about standing out in a crowd because I'm not driven by ego. I want to do my role to the best of my ability, be secure in the knowledge that the people I bring with me are as capable of doing the same, and to know that my time isn't going to be wasted by people being idiots because they can hide in the anonymity of being in a large, faceless crowd.

25m raiding doesn't offer me that, and unless a tank spot opens up in a guild like Stage Clear, it likely won't ever offer me that.

Are you suggesting that 25 man progression guilds are able to "hide" players who do not bring knowledge or ability to each encounter? What a curious statement. I could cite pass/fail mechanics or throughput checks from countless encounters that demand a certain level of play from your entire raid at progression gear levels. Unless you're referring to normal modes, you need everybody to perform. In the larger setting, there is simply 2.5 more points-of-potential-failure.

Also curious to hear which attributes you value highly in the guild you mentioned, such that it's the only 25 man you would ever consider joining and what your knowledge of other guild environments "must be like" :)
Edited by Vulgrym on 3/9/2013 8:25 AM PST
90 Human Mage
4825
Most 25s don't really run alt raids, certainly not to the same level of the main raid.
Which is why I said highly effective ... and you probably have never raided on the level of Supermassive, WHATEVER WERE AWESOME, Critical Mass, Blood Legion, vodka, etc. This is where the "highly effective" comes into play. I'm not talking a mediocre, where the guild finishes like 538th in the world.

03/09/2013 08:04 AMPosted by Hyjinx
I'd also argue that you don't need as many highly effective leaders in 10s.
I didn't state you NEED highly effective leaders in 10m, but if you're expecting to complete on the world stage, I would go far enough to state the core needs to be highly effective if the leader is not the cornerstone of the guild. I statement said, "25's with highly effective leaders". You're trying to argue something stated by taking it out of context, then assuming it still applies elsewhere.

If that were really true and not just a statement based on eyeballing the percentages, then 25s wouldn't be dying. Attrition is pretty much THE major reason why the number of 25 man guilds has dwindled.
Again, you've taken one statement without reading the entire context of what was said. I stated previously (the post prior) that people will revert to doing things the "easy way" ... aka. The path of least resistance.

Which apparently isn't much of an incentive given that there are less and less 25 man guilds around.
In many people's minds, its not and I didn't argue it as the ONLY reason. In fact, I gave Paragon as an example of a guild that didn't feel it was enough of an incentive to stay 25-man. They even stated this as one of their points when they decided to drop to 10-man. Thunderforging was a way Blizzard has attempted to address the issue ... which is a little bit, too late, and not in the method they should've tried.
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