10/25 Man loot

100 Human Warrior
17910
In many people's minds, its not and I didn't argue it as the ONLY reason. In fact, I gave Paragon as an example of a guild that didn't feel it was enough of an incentive to stay 25-man. They even stated this as one of their points when they decided to drop to 10-man. Thunderforging was a way Blizzard has attempted to address the issue ... which is a little bit, too late, and not in the method they should've tried.

Lots of assumptions being made about what incented Paragon and their reasons to drop to 10, so this might be useful (i.e. their own words):

http://www.paragon.fi/news/paragon-will-be-switching-25man-10man-mop

It was simply the pain of maintaining a roster at the quality level they were accustomed to that led to the change. When they saw they were going to fall short of where they wanted to be, they made the switch.

Obviously, Paragon operated and performed at the highest of levels, but this is the basic decision point that 25 man progression guilds potentially face at any point along the curve.

Loot is a means to an end for progression guilds -- it helps you beat the next boss faster, and then the next... and so on, until there are none left for that tier. It's not really a motivator at the individual level. This is why Thunderforged loot was either apathetically or ill-received from that community. If anything, it just made things messier in terms of complicating non-LC loot distribution systems.
Edited by Vulgrym on 3/9/2013 9:01 AM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
So, I understand 25 mans were dying, and they needed more incentive because it is more work to keep one going. But blizzard is going about this ALL wrong. Now they are gearing up almost double as fast because 10 man end up having to DE half of their gear, and never get thundeforged and minimum of 2 items per boss thunderforged in 25 man. 25 man also very rarely DE's anything.

Then on top of that I found out about the t15 token changes, where it isn't a guaranteed drop in 10 man anymore, 0-2 tokens can drop, and in 25 2-4 tokens can drop. Which puts double RNG into tier, making it especially bad for 10 man cause they can continuously get zero tier. On top of that 10 man is tuned much tighter then 25. 1 Person messes up your likely to wipe unless you really outgear the content. It seems blizzard is trying to completely revive 25 mans and put 10 mans in its grave..


#1 We have killed five bosses in 25man Throne of Thunder and have a total of TWO Thunderforged items, your information is incorrect.

#2 T15 tokens should always drop regardless of raid size.

#3 Stop with the tuning crap. 10mans should die a painful death, they are the reason this game sucks. Every class has to have every ability so 10mans can raid and THAT is the #1 reason balance in this game sucks so bad.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Which is why I said highly effective ... and you probably have never raided on the level of Supermassive, WHATEVER WERE AWESOME, Critical Mass, Blood Legion, vodka, etc. This is where the "highly effective" comes into play. I'm not talking a mediocre, where the guild finishes like 538th in the world.


So.. you're saying your post has no real relevance. Fine by me. Thanks.

I didn't state you NEED highly effective leaders in 10m, but if you're expecting to complete on the world stage, I would go far enough to state the core needs to be highly effective if the leader is not the cornerstone of the guild. I statement said, "25's with highly effective leaders". You're trying to argue something stated by taking it out of context, then assuming it still applies elsewhere.


So if everything you're saying only applied to the world progression guilds, what the hell does it have to do with anything this thread is talking about?
90 Night Elf Warrior
11245
03/09/2013 02:25 AMPosted by Waraila
On top of that 10 man is tuned much tighter then 25. 1 Person messes up your likely to wipe unless you really outgear the content.


That for a start is false.

The difficulties seem to be simiilar on both modes so stop complaining. One person dies on a 25 man can wipe the raid. Its not as simple as you think.

Then on top of that I found out about the t15 token changes, where it isn't a guaranteed drop in 10 man anymore, 0-2 tokens can drop, and in 25 2-4 tokens can drop.


So run 25s if you want guarenteed loot. There comes a point where 10 man should not have all the advantages. Easier to organise, less people to have drama with, less people to have to herd during raid..... etc. Makes it easier to all be on the same page.

25s take more organisation, especially during fights. More people to screw up the mechanics and wipe you... more people to have to assign jobs in fights that require it. So they get a bit less loot rng.

So what? If loot is your be all and end all... join a 25 man raid. If clearing content is what you're aiming at... does it really matter which format you are in and what loot drops or not?


Two things, one, you said Seem, which means you're not positive of the truth of the matter.
Secondly, it's been hard as hell nowadays to get into a 25 man guild that a) clears decently(and I mean just normal) and b) raids at the time you can. No one should have to change their work hours at their job, or re-arrange their life to be able to suit the needs of others to be able to raid on WoW, they really shouldn't, it's definitely a hobby for a lot of us, but a hobby shouldn't dictate any part of how you manage your time in real life, and for WoW, for the majority of us actually trying to complete content or play competitively at all, this is required.

Now you say it's a video game, no one's telling you you have to play it, or do anything about it. True. But that doesn't change the fact that most of us that play want to complete content, the whole point of the game, and aren't able to as well as we want to due to "Time Constraints" implemented by blizzard, which makes it pointless to want to play. The game is there so we can have fun and enjoy ourselves. That is the reason it's there, and when a good amount of people are having issues being able to do so due to multiple variables, some of which can't be controlled, I agree, but other's which can, something needs to be done. I stress need because there definitely is a solution to this problem.

In the end, as great as the game is, there are quite a few small-medium issues that amount in the end as one big problem, and a lot of people have expressed this same sentiment. There needs still to be more tweeking in this area of gameplay, not to mention other area's, that would really live this game further to greater heights of popularity and enjoyment and notoriety.
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
03/09/2013 02:25 AMPosted by Waraila
There comes a point


Oh really? I think there comes a point where 25 man should not have all of the advantages.

*Less executional responsibility per person.
*More Battle rezes per attempt.
*Higher chance of drops actually being used.
*Much easier time with desired raid comps.
*More loot per kill.
*And now more TF gear per kill.

For slightly more logistical (i.e. outside of raid) effort? I don't understand why they keep trying to incentivize 25m raiding when even the WoW Devs have stated clearly:

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


Yes, I suppose throwing more loot at the "raiders" who are coasting by in 25m might keep a few there going through the motions. I guess the upside to this is that at least Blizzard has made it clear the skilled players will be raiding 10n/hm and we can all start to ignore LFR/25m progression.
Edited by Espe on 3/9/2013 10:42 AM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Where is this 25m gets more loot crap coming from? i see it as 10m=2 pieces, 25m(2 AND A HALF OF A 10 MAN) gets 5 pieces. its equal. don't like it? then do 25's. the only thing 25's changes is a higher chance of seeing your specific piece you want drop.


25 man gets 6 piece last I checked.
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
There comes a point


Oh really? I think there comes a point where 25 man should not have all of the advantages.

*Less executional responsibility per person.
*More Battle rezes per attempt.
*Higher chance of drops actually being used.
*Much easier time with desired raid comps.
*More loot per kill.
*And now more TF gear per kill.

For slightly more logistical (i.e. outside of raid) effort? I don't understand why they keep trying to incentivize 25m raiding when even the WoW Devs have stated clearly:

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


Yes, I suppose throwing more loot at the "raiders" who are coasting by in 25m might keep a few there going through the motions. I guess the upside to this is that at least Blizzard has made it clear that the skilled players will be raiding 10n/hm and we can all start to ignore LFR/25m progression.


I would post on a level 1 alt if I were you too. Well not actually, I have a backbone.

10man raiders are the ones who want to be "wallflowers". "Most" of them are just raiders who got kicked from 25mans for being bad.
Edited by Layuth on 3/9/2013 10:47 AM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Oh really? I think there comes a point where 25 man should not have all of the advantages.

*Less executional responsibility per person.
*More Battle rezes per attempt.
*Higher chance of drops actually being used.
*Much easier time with desired raid comps.
*More loot per kill.
*And now more TF gear per kill.

For slightly more logistical (i.e. outside of raid) effort? I don't understand why they keep trying to incentivize 25m raiding when even the WoW Devs have stated clearly:


Most of those are debatable or justified, and even with them 25s dwindle.
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
03/09/2013 10:42 AMPosted by Layuth
10man raiders are the ones who want to be "wallflowers".


I can see why you would fall back to complete denial and insults. I don't expect much more out of the average LFR/25m raider.

There is a reason they didn't make a 10m version of LFR :)

I suggest you stick to your zerg raiding and leave the heavy lifting to someone else.
Edited by Espe on 3/9/2013 10:52 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
10s providing lesser rewards is not a "lesser state of only having 1 raiding format".

It's being rewarded appropriately for your effort.

Except for the fact that 10-man requires more personal accountability. It's so, so, so much easier to carry people on 25-man.

The only person that's working harder in a 25-man is the GM and the officers, and they're not working harder content-wise, they're working harder management wise. And that's even ignoring the fact that 10 man has its recruitment difficulties as well. Can't class stack on 10-man.

I'm researching my class just as much as an equally progression-minded 25-man player. I'm doing just as many dailies and rep grinds as an equally progression-minded 25-man player. I'm looking into strategies just as much as an equally progression-minded 25-man player. So given that me and the equally progression-minded 25-man player are putting forth the exact same amount of effort, why should I get the short end of the stick? For choosing a smaller raiding format where more personal accountability is required?

The rewards of the systems are completely unbalanced and blizz either just needs to move to a uniform style of raiding, balance the difficulty better, or just separate the lockouts again. The whole 10 vs 25 on the "supposedly" same difficulty thing is just stupid. Always has been, always will be.
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
10s providing lesser rewards is not a "lesser state of only having 1 raiding format".

It's being rewarded appropriately for your effort.

Except for the fact that 10-man requires more personal accountability. It's so, so, so much easier to carry people on 25-man.

The only person that's working harder in a 25-man is the GM and the officers, and they're not working harder content-wise, they're working harder management wise. And that's even ignoring the fact that 10 man has its recruitment difficulties as well. Can't class stack on 10-man.

I'm researching my class just as much as an equally progression-minded 25-man player. I'm doing just as many dailies and rep grinds as an equally progression-minded 25-man player. I'm looking into strategies just as much as an equally progression-minded 25-man player. So given that me and the equally progression-minded 25-man player are putting forth the exact same amount of effort, why should I get the short end of the stick? For choosing a smaller raiding format where more personal accountability is required?

The rewards of the systems are completely unbalanced and blizz either just needs to move to a uniform style of raiding, balance the difficulty better, or just separate the lockouts again. The whole 10 vs 25 on the "supposedly" same difficulty thing is just stupid. Always has been, always will be.


This. Exactly this.

The WoW Devs have clearly acknowledged that while 25m raiding may take slightly more logistical (i.e. outside of raid) effort from a few members of the guild, 10m raiding take much, much more executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) effort from all 10m raiders.

Again, there is a reason there is no 10m version of LFR :)
90 Undead Priest
19175
25 man also very rarely DE's anything.


Look, it's great that you're concerned about your loot and all, but if you don't raid 25 mans, stop talking about how they work. I'm really tired of clueless 10 man raiders trying to use how they think 25 mans work as an argument for why 10 man raiders have it so rough. We DE a ton of gear because it's useless. Hell, stuff almost got DE'd this week on THE FIRST WEEK OF THE RAID because when you get poorly itemized pieces that overlap with existing 2/2 heroic tier sets, people don't really gain anything jumping to them. It's not uncommon to have to DE things because we have ridiculous numbers of them, for example, we killed Gara'jal H like the second or third week of MSV and received 12 shields in our first 5 kills. Everyone had one for their offset week 2 and we were DEing half the loot we received from him for the next three weeks.
100 Dwarf Paladin
21630


Having 0 tier tokens drop for 10 person raid groups was unintended. We're currently looking to address this in a coming hotfix similar to the one that had been implemented for 25 person raid groups.

From [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693/"]Patch 5.2 Hotfixes - March 7[/url]:
•The appropriate number of tier tokens should now drop for 25-player normal and heroic difficulties.


I agree with OP, looks like you guys are trying to make 10man back to the way it was in wrath, slowly , but surely.

inb4 next tier 25man drops higher ilvl gear.


You mean giving better rewards for harder content?

That doesn't sound like a strange concept to me. 10-mans used to have equal difficulty and equal rewards in Cataclysm 4.0. 10-man raiders complained about the difficulty, so Blizzard gave 10-man raiders equal rewards for lesser difficulty in Firelands and beyond. Blizzard is simply correcting a mistake - it would be similar to if they made heroic 5-mans drop better loot than 10-man raids.

You're still getting equal rewards for easier content. You just obtain it slightly slower.
Edited by Eloderung on 3/9/2013 11:12 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
4810
I don't understand why they keep trying to incentivize 25m raiding


This is the real issue.

Blizz knows the importance of 25 man raiding, all you guys care about is getting the same amount and same ilvl of purples. Remember, 25 mans didn't want THIS solution any more than 10 man raiders did - but something had to be done (Blizz's stance - not mine)

25 man raiders were complaining because it was sad to see the participation in 25 man raid guilds becoming abysmally low, because there was no reason to do them when you could EASILY throw together a successful 10 man and go to work with very few drawbacks.

25 man raiding cannot die, and Blizzard won't let it die. So let's start being a bit more reasonable with attacking 25 man guilds who are doing nothing more than "raiding their preferred format"
90 Orc Shaman
13550
Again, there is a reason there is no 10m version of LFR :)


Because dps queues would be absurd.

LFR is so laughably easy that the supposed increase to personal accountability wouldn't matter one bit.
Edited by Hyjinx on 3/9/2013 11:17 AM PST
100 Pandaren Mage
13645
I just saw a warlock last night with 5 thunderforged items already, now thats some serious luck
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
03/09/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Eloderung
You're still getting equal rewards for easier content.


Actually, as the WoW Devs have stated more than once, 25m raiders get more rewards for easier content. There is no question about who has the higher executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden. For instance, you can't carry anyone through 10m. 25m is a completely different story. That is just according to the people who design this game, however.

Again, there is a reason there is no 10m version of LFR :)

The WoW Devs said it best

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.
Edited by Espe on 3/9/2013 11:20 AM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
03/09/2013 10:50 AMPosted by Espe
10man raiders are the ones who want to be "wallflowers".


I can see why you would fall back to complete denial and insults. I don't expect much more out of the average LFR/25m raider.

There is a reason they didn't make a 10m version of LFR :)

I suggest you stick to your zerg raiding and leave the heavy lifting to someone else.


No denial, no insults. Sometimes the truth just hurts.

The reason they didn't make a 10m version of LFR is because they already have 10m normal. Hopefully they trash the 10man model and make everything 15man.
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