10/25 Man loot

90 Blood Elf Paladin
18325
If you think 10s are easier, try doing Horridon with two shaman healers. No poison dispel, no disease dispel.
90 Undead Priest
18745
Except for the fact that 10-man requires more personal accountability. It's so, so, so much easier to carry people on 25-man.


I see 10 man raiders say this a lot. It simply isn't true. I also have to say I really don't feel like your lack of heroic raiding experience gives you any credibility on the subject. You can carry anyone through normals on either difficulty. They're easy. Most of the heroics you have downed are incredibly easy too and can have people carried through them.

How many people have raided the same tier as progression in both 10 and 25 man in recent tiers? I know I have. Twice. 10 mans were easier every step of the way, with the exception of H Hagara.

No poison dispel, no disease dispel.


You kill the mobs that AOE poison bolt before it stacks too high...
Edited by Nixxe on 3/9/2013 11:23 AM PST
73 Gnome Warlock
875
Mainly due to the difficulty of finding 25+ raiders


Their exact reason was that they couldn't field a full 25m raid of Finnish (?) speaking raiders that can play at the necessary level before the T14 race went live. They would need a tier or two in order to get back up to speed after losing the majority of their roster during the Dragon Soul lull.

It isn't meant to be a permanent change in how they run raids, at least per their blog.

Note: This wasn't an argument, more taking advantage of your post and using it as a spring board as to why the Paragon argument isn't entirely relevant to the argument that 10's could "kill" 25's as the leading world race format.
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
03/09/2013 11:20 AMPosted by Layuth
Sometimes the truth just hurts.


I can tell it's hurting you quite a bit right now. As you can clearly see from what the WoW Devs themselves have stated, 25m is for carrying and 10m is for raiding. There is no 10m version of LFR because they were worried it couldn't be completed. 25m just have too many crutches to let go of for an LFR mode.

On another note, I'd like to congratulate you for your in-game "accomplishments." I would recommend you stick to 25m, however. That seems more your speed :)
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
If you think 10s are easier, try doing Horridon with two shaman healers. No poison dispel, no disease dispel.


Oh yeah! Try doing Horridon on 25man with 5 Shaman healers. Changing raid sizes will NOT fix stupid. If you are having trouble filling a TEN man roster with different classes then perhaps you have bigger problems.

P.S. They have watered down this game too much already for 10mans, they need not water it down anymore.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8505
You're still getting equal rewards for easier content.


Actually, as the WoW Devs have stated more than once, 25m raiders get more rewards for easier content. There is no question about who has the higher executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden. For instance, you can't carry anyone through 10m. 25m is a completely different story. That is just according to the people who design this game, however.

Again, there is a reason there is no 10m version of LFR :)

The WoW Devs said it best

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


Why do you keep harping on one dev post that was answering a request for 10 man LFR? The dev in question never said 25's were easier. He said it was easier to design something like LFR using the 25 man format. They can guarantee more class distribution and all the needed Buffs plus the devs can tune things around the assumption that half the Raid will be sub par. You're reading in stuff that's just not there.

That has zilch to do with real 25 man Raiding. 25's and 10's are tuned with the number of players in mind. Mechanics and enrage timers are both designed around the number of players.

You have an obvious inferiority complex about being a 10 man raider. How about you enjoy the format you prefer and be happy this isn't Wrath?
Edited by Zootzoot on 3/9/2013 11:27 AM PST
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
03/09/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Layuth
Try doing Horridon on 25man with 5 Shaman healers.


What 25m has only shaman healers? Even your examples are completely unrealistic.

Gonna leave you with this quote from the WoW Devs once again:

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


Stick to LFR/25m and you'll be fine :)
90 Undead Priest
18745
Stick to LFR/25m and you'll be fine :)


Is the "more difficult" 10 man format why you have almost no heroic bosses killed in T14?
Edited by Nixxe on 3/9/2013 11:35 AM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13750
03/09/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Espe
Sometimes the truth just hurts.


I can tell it's hurting you quite a bit right now. As you can clearly see from what the WoW Devs themselves have stated, 25m is for carrying and 10m is for raiding. There is no 10m version of LFR because they were worried it couldn't be completed. 25m just have too many crutches to let go of for an LFR mode.

On another note, I'd like to congratulate you for your in-game "accomplishments." I would recommend you stick to 25m, however. That seems more your speed :)


Yes, because everything the wow devs say must be taken as absolutely correct and written in stone. What about when the devs asserted that 25 mans were dwindling and they don't want it to happen? How's that fit into your worldview?

There's no 10m LFR because the queue times would be absurd for dps. There's no question of completion rate in LFR. It's so easy that it wouldn't come into play. Think about it. Mechanics often hit much softer in 10 man than in 25 man to compensate for the reduced amount of people. Now, in LFR 25 difficulty mechanics hit softer still.. so it stands to reason that in a 10 man LFR the mechanics would hit even softer. You can already ignore 90% of mechanics in LFR 25. In LFR 10 the only mechanics that would have a remote chance of killing the player would be react-or-die mechanics.

You could argue that it might be slightly easier for 1 person to grief an LFR in 10m with certain mechanics.. but that has less to do with personal accountability and more to do with people being jackasses.
90 Worgen Druid
4810
Try doing Horridon on 25man with 5 Shaman healers.


What 25m has only shaman healers? Even your examples are completely unrealistic.

Gonna leave you with this quote from the WoW Devs once again:

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


Stick to LFR/25m and you'll be fine :)


The amount of grasping at straws and hanging on to a single statement that was STRICTLY related to LFR raiding is laughable.

But please, feel free to post it again instead of formulating a reasonable argument.
Edited by Duboomchikin on 3/9/2013 11:32 AM PST
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
03/09/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Zootzoot
How about you enjoy the format you prefer and be happy this isn't Wrath?


All I want is to recieve the equal reward for equal difficultly. Currently that is not possible for dedicated 10m raiders.

25m has all of the advantages and none of the drawbacks.

*Less executional responsibility per person.
*More Battle rezes per attempt.
*Higher chance of drops actually being used.
*Much easier time with desired raid comps.
*More loot per kill.
*And now more TF gear per kill.

Telling me to suck it up because Wrath was terrible does not make this a better game. All I'm asking is to level the playing field instead of constantly capitulating to children who want to be carried to easy epics in LFR/25m.
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
03/09/2013 11:27 AMPosted by Espe
Try doing Horridon on 25man with 5 Shaman healers.


What 25m has only shaman healers? Even your examples are completely unrealistic.

Gonna leave you with this quote from the WoW Devs once again:

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


Stick to LFR/25m and you'll be fine :)


The same devs that say that balance is IMPOSSIBLE. Yeah, I have faith in them. They need to stop homogenizing everything for the sake of 10man raiding and they will be fine, until then they are just stealing paychecks.

By the way, I am willing to bet that you have always raided 10man or were kicked from a 25man for being bad. Which is it?
85 Night Elf Druid
12000
In Wrath, 25 mans rewarded better gear. This led more people to run 25s or 10s. Blizz didn't like this so they decided to make the gear rewards equal in Cataclysm. However this led to a large decline in 25 man raiding, since people don't want to go through the extra effort of having to set up a raid and not get some kind of extra reward. So Blizz is trying to make 25s a bit more appealing.

Blizz has even said that they like having 2 raid sizes because it gives players choice. So no, they aren't going to just let one die.
I think the main concern is not whether 25's get better gear than 10's. Fine let them have more gear. Just don't make it possible for 10 man's to get nothing each and every week if you have bad RNG.

The mistake is when they introduce the "0" factor in to the equation.
90 Worgen Druid
4810
dedicated 10m raiders.



I would love to hear from this crowd, they seem all but absent in this thread.
Edited by Duboomchikin on 3/9/2013 11:42 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
4810
never heard of anyone being kicked from a 25m for bad play.


This actually puts all of your posts in perspective.
85 Night Elf Druid
12000
I think the main concern is not whether 25's get better gear than 10's. Fine let them have more gear. Just don't make it possible for 10 man's to get nothing each and every week if you have bad RNG.

The mistake is when they introduce the "0" factor in to the equation.


A blue post earlier in this thread stated that this incident was not intended and was going to be fixed.
90 Undead Priest
18745
The way you keep attacking 10m, simply for taking more executional skill and being given less rewards makes me think maybe you were kicked from a 10m guild. It's ok though, that's why LFR/25m exists :)


Hey Tase of Detheroc, I'd like to know why you think you're some kind of authority on difficulty when you have yet to do difficult content, regardless of format.
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
The mistake is when they introduce the "0" factor in to the equation.


Thankfully they have stated that they should be correcting this issue. Unfortunately, there are many more issues in regards to risk vs. reward and the current raiding model. When you have the devs themselves admitting that 25m is made for carrying, you have a huge problem. I think if 25m raiders were more honest with themselves and everyone else about their actual executional requirements it would be really good for the game.

Just look at the number of guilds who complete 25m content vs. 10m. Such a huge disparity makes it clear that quite a few people are being carried. That is not balanced, and it is not a lot of fun for the 10m raiders who are working harder for less reward.
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