10/25 Man loot

1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
03/09/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Those "crutches/advantages" don't seem to be making the game any worse, either.


Just one ne example is when 25m guilds funnel gear to a core of 10 and then cheese through some 10m kills just for ranking / skipping certain kills. No 10m guild would have their entire roster perfectly geared and classes cherry picked out of a larger pool for any encounter. 25m have that option and often excercise it according to wowporgress. "skill"

03/09/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Nixxe
We killed two new bosses in 10 H Firelands the week before Dragon Soul released, when on 25 man I wouldn't say we ever even had H Shannox truly on farm


You mean you geared up in 25m and then used that advantage to cheese through the 10m that you could not even be carried through? "pro"

Also exactly what I was talking about.
90 Undead Priest
18715
You mean you geared up in 25m and then used that advantage to cheese through the 10m that you could not even be carried through? "pro"

Also exactly what I was talking about.


Apparently you can't even get carried through H MSV. :(
90 Human Mage
4825
03/09/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Uh, no, you limited the scope by saying that the "average raider" never sees any of those advantages.
I stated "average player". There is a difference between a raider and a player. Sorry if that's a difficult concept for you ... but by confusing those, you have, in fact, taken what I said out of context.

You also implied that the scope was very limited when you said I was out of context by applying them to a larger amount of raiders. You can't have it both ways. Either the scope is limited or I didn't take what you said out of context.
You obviously didn't read more than the first sentence of THAT post before taking me out of context. I limited the scope of THAT point to the average player. There were other points, which you applied the same scope to, without reading what was said cited a differing scope. So, yes, I can say that I can have it both ways when you're not reading it correctly.
90 Gnome Death Knight
13415
Yep. The fact remains that while wannabe hardcore 25-normal raiders represent a vanishing portion of the game's player base, they make up and have always made up, a disproportionately large voice on the forums.

And as much as Blizzard says it doesn't listen to the forums, it does, and that tiny child with a giant megaphone is good at getting its voice heard.

this game is absolutely headed back to the gear gap of 3.1-3.2-era WotLK.
Edited by Wwel on 3/9/2013 12:46 PM PST
1 Human Hunter
0
Yep. The fact remains that while wannabe hardcore 25-normal raiders represent a vanishing portion of the game's player base, they make up and have always made up, a disproportionately large voice on the forums.

And as much as Blizzard says it doesn't listen to the forums, it does, and that tiny child with a giant megaphone is good at getting its voice heard.

this game is absolutely headed back to the gear gap of 3.1-3.2-era WotLK.


I dont see how this is any concern of yours, LFR will be left as is.
90 Undead Priest
18715
Yep. The fact remains that while wannabe hardcore 25-normal raiders represent a vanishing portion of the game's player base, they make up and have always made up, a disproportionately large voice on the forums.

And as much as Blizzard says it doesn't listen to the forums, it does, and that tiny child with a giant megaphone is good at getting its voice heard.


But let's forget that 10 mans were added and later legitimized because of massive amounts of complaining that 25 mans were just too difficult to get into, followed by MY FORMAT IS JUST HAS HARD (now harder) AND DESERVES THE SAME STUFF (even though it really wasn't in Wrath by any stretch).
90 Gnome Priest
17630
Re: Thunderforged - we had a Thunderforged caster ring drop off Jin'Rokh on Tuesday and then a Thunderforged zone drop off trash on Thursday. Knowing that 10 man has a much smaller chance than 25man, we were very surprised. RNG is RNG.

Regarding removing a 25man format and changing it to 15 reducing melee spots. Blizzard needs to give ranged a dead zone in melee like hunters used to have when it came to shooting and then create mechanics that don't unduly penalize either group over the course of a fight. Have a mechanic where everyone has to stack on the boss? Ranged can only auto-attack for the duration while melee can continue their normal rotation. Have a mechanic that requires melee to run from the boss? They're stuck with their weak ranged attacks while ranged continues their normal rotation.

And no, hunters wouldn't really get penalized with a ranged dead zone now that they can't equip ranged and melee at the same time. Their pets are still providing damage even if they personally aren't. And they can always get a melee weapon and use an equipment swap macro.

Trying to buff melee to make them more attractive isn't working because in the long run there aren't enough mechanics that are punishing only ranged and not melee also. And no player is happy when the DPS for their class ends up falling below other classes. If melee all gravitated to the top while all ranged sank to the bottom, there would be some major screaming in the forums.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
Just one ne example is when 25m guilds funnel gear to a core of 10 and then cheese through some 10m kills just for ranking / skipping certain kills. No 10m guild would have their entire roster perfectly geared and classes cherry picked out of a larger pool for any encounter. 25m have that option and often excercise it according to wowporgress. "skill"


Ok, but that doesn't mean there's inherently anything wrong with the additional loot, merely how it's being used.

So, you solve it by making that scenario impossible. For example, off the top of my head, you limit the switch from 25s to 10s to once a week. There goes skipping kills, since a guild could go longer switch the difficulty back to 25s for that lockout. Note: This example isn't meant to be a catch-all solution, so please don't waste time nitpicking it.

Also, you do realize that the "extra loot" 25s received amounts to 1 piece per boss, yes? You take away 1 piece of gear per kill and it doesn't stop the example you gave by a long shot.
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
Uh, no, you limited the scope by saying that the "average raider" never sees any of those advantages.
I stated "average player". There is a difference between a raider and a player. Sorry if that's a difficult concept for you ... but by confusing those, you have, in fact, taken what I said out of context.

You also implied that the scope was very limited when you said I was out of context by applying them to a larger amount of raiders. You can't have it both ways. Either the scope is limited or I didn't take what you said out of context.
You obviously didn't read more than the first sentence of THAT post before taking me out of context. I limited the scope of THAT point to the average player. There were other points, which you applied the same scope to, without reading what was said cited a differing scope. So, yes, I can say that I can have it both ways when you're not reading it correctly.


In his defense, he is used to being carried through 25s. Too bad there is no one around to carry him through reading.

Yep. The fact remains that while wannabe hardcore 25-normal raiders represent a vanishing portion of the game's player base, they make up and have always made up, a disproportionately large voice on the forums.

And as much as Blizzard says it doesn't listen to the forums, it does, and that tiny child with a giant megaphone is good at getting its voice heard.

this game is absolutely headed back to the gear gap of 3.1-3.2-era WotLK.


I hear ya. Hopefully the devs wake up and listen to their own advice. As it is right now 10m are punished for no reason and 25m have no respect because they are laughably easy. Nothing about that is good for this game.
Edited by Espe on 3/9/2013 12:50 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
13750
03/09/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Bozidar
Uh, no, you limited the scope by saying that the "average raider" never sees any of those advantages.
I stated "average player". There is a difference between a raider and a player. Sorry if that's a difficult concept for you ... but by confusing those, you have, in fact, taken what I said out of context.

You also implied that the scope was very limited when you said I was out of context by applying them to a larger amount of raiders. You can't have it both ways. Either the scope is limited or I didn't take what you said out of context.
You obviously didn't read more than the first sentence of THAT post before taking me out of context. I limited the scope of THAT point to the average player. There were other points, which you applied the same scope to, without reading what was said cited a differing scope. So, yes, I can say that I can have it both ways when you're not reading it correctly.


You never made any differentiation in the original post. The advantages were all under the same header of "the average player never sees these."
90 Undead Priest
18715
03/09/2013 12:49 PMPosted by Joynal
Ranged can only auto-attack for the duration while melee can continue their normal rotation.


I would definitely quit over that change.

Better solution would just be to once again penalize ranged for having to move instead of letting half of the specs continue their full rotation on the run.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
In his defense, he is used to being carried through 25s. Too bad there is no one around to carry him through reading.


Apparently you think every player in 25s gets carried, Espe. Who does the carrying, then?
Edited by Hyjinx on 3/9/2013 12:54 PM PST
90 Undead Priest
18715
03/09/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Hyjinx
In his defense, he is used to being carried through 25s. Too bad there is no one around to carry him through reading.


Apparently you think every player in 25s gets carried. Who does the carrying, then?


I'm pretty sure Tase is just trolling. At least I hope he is because otherwise... oh my.
90 Worgen Druid
4810
The fact remains that while wannabe hardcore 25-normal raiders represent a vanishing portion of the game's player base, they make up and have always made up, a disproportionately large voice on the forums.


I legitimately hope you are either (1) trolling, (2) completely oblivious, or (3) typed "25" instead of "10" on accident.
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
Yep. The fact remains that while wannabe hardcore 25-normal raiders represent a vanishing portion of the game's player base, they make up and have always made up, a disproportionately large voice on the forums.

And as much as Blizzard says it doesn't listen to the forums, it does, and that tiny child with a giant megaphone is good at getting its voice heard.

this game is absolutely headed back to the gear gap of 3.1-3.2-era WotLK.


I legitimately hope you are either (1) trolling, (2) completely oblivious, or (3) typed "25" instead of "10" on accident.


The fact remains that 25m raiding takes less skill than 10m.

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


And I fail to see why they should be rewarded over and over and over again for simply filling out their raid with a few more warm bodies. You have people being carried through LFR/25m like this Nixxe priest who doesn't even know how to properly reforge.
Edited by Espe on 3/9/2013 1:03 PM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
8505

They have never said this.


And I quote:

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


He was speaking about designing LFR content. That's the mistake you keep making. He's answering a question as to why they don't have a 10 man LFR. It has nothing to do with the difficulty of the two formats in Normal or Hard mode.

The introduction of 10's as a viable format has done irreparable harm to class distinction. The need for the devs to make sure any 10 comp has all the Buffs and Debuffs needed for encounters has brought homogenization that's made the game feel a little more bland than it used to.

I think the devs know that and I think that deep down they prefer the larger scale format because it feels like Raiding and not a glorified dungeon run.
90 Orc Shaman
13750
It's ironic, Espe, that you call out my reading comprehension when you keep quoting that out of context.

It's also just a bit hypocritical that you keep quoting it when your entire stance is against other things they have said, such as Thunderforged gear.

Try to concentrate a little less on what the devs do or don't say and a little more on the strength of your own argument, 'kay? Thanks.

Edit: Oh, and that last part includes ad hominem attacks.. like insinuating that I get carried through 25s simply because I don't agree with you.
Edited by Hyjinx on 3/9/2013 1:04 PM PST
1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
03/09/2013 01:02 PMPosted by Zootzoot
He's answering a question as to why they don't have a 10 man LFR.


Very good *pats head*

This is exactly what I have been saying. In reply to the question "Why is there no 10m version of LFR?" the dev answers "Because it is easier to carry people through 25m."

This obviously applies to any 10m vs. 25m situation, whether we are talking about 10/25LFR, 10/25n or 10/25hm. 25m already have the executional advantage in every scenario, why just keep piling on crutches for them? It obviously isn't helping them become better players, because all they do is beg for easier epics instead of manning up and asking for balanced risk vs. reward.
Edited by Espe on 3/9/2013 1:11 PM PST
90 Gnome Priest
17630
Asking these players to wait a few weeks while you try to form a 25m is often not realistic. Cross-realm 25m for current tier has its perks, but it almost guarantees no mid-low tier 25m guilds will be formed on any but the most populous servers. If they already can do it cross-realm, why form a guild for it? And why limit it to 25m? It is a dangerous road.

Why is guild access to content more important than individual player access to content? How is WoW gaining anything by forcing players into guilds to get access?

Players will continue to form raid guilds when they enjoy the company of those they raid with. But too many realms don't have the population to support more than a tiny number of active guilds - which leaves a lot of players out in the cold when it comes to raiding. Cross realm raiding of current tier will help with that. No one is going to be satisfied with waiting until the content is old to get a chance to do it, and they're going to even less interested in doing the content another 2-3 months after being stuck doing that content in LFR for 5-6 months, especially when LFR is dropping better gear.

If players end up leaving their current raid guilds and moving to cross realm raid groups, it's because they were only using the guild as a way to get a raid spot and not because they enjoyed being part of the guild or were in any way loyal to it. At the same time, those guilds now would have a chance to recruit cross realm for other players to join their raid group so their players will continue to get a chance to raid.

Blizzard could easily allow raid team names to be set if people are worried about progression rankings, like Arena teams have names. Cross realm groups would be ranked by region/world. Guilds could continue to be ranked by realms given a certain number of players from the same guild in the group, probably 80% like Blizzard sets for other group content.

But the important thing is that more players would have the opportunity to actually raid instead of getting dumped in LFR for lack of options. More raiders in the raiding community strengthens the community and can actually lead to 25man raiding reviving since the 25man groups will have far more players to attract then the limited pools on their own servers. DPS would have a much easier time finding groups since the percentage of DPS in 25man groups is higher than in 10man.
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