Too many Guilds!

90 Orc Hunter
7080
i seem to agree with many of the points "pissedjedi" has made. i too am from a guild on illidan that has a short list of players now, many went to starcraft, diablo, or very many to swtor (myself included) i recently came back to wow to check out mop but i find myself sad that the guild is so quiet now. i actually really enjoy mop, i've spent several months just gettin a few characters exalted and to lvl 90 with factions and am working on getting more valor and justice gear to be able to have the IL's to do the pug raids. but during this time, the only real guild activity has been using chat to ask questions about mop, no real guild runs or pvp to speak of. makes me wonder if we should merge with another guild and just use the guild as a mule bank. but at the same time the GM is less active and well its his guild. i just am hesitant to leave because i have friends there but many just dont play anymore. its a tough call. i think i'd rather be in an active guild and making new contacts. its something to think about but this game is meant to be social and team based, so if your not in a active guild, i think we all know what actions eventually we will take to make our game time more enjoyable/productive.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
Well, why should those guilds disband rather than being the ones that other guilds come to join? I think that is what Sub is getting at.

But yes, it is a problem. Which is why you'll find me constantly recommending against people looking for advice on starting new guilds. We just don't need another new raiding guild or social guild or guild.


Okay, here is the problem I have with such a statement...

The fact is, that a hardcore raiding guild, can only have 10 core spots. You can forget 25 man raid teams, they will never happen these days, no matter what incentive Blizzard adds to raid in a 25 man team, as it's difficult enough getting a 10 man organized. So it's a natural assumption that a raiding guild, will only ever have 10 core spots.

So there actually needs to be lots of different guilds, as MILLIONS of people play wow, probably thousands on each server. Can it get out of hand on some servers, where there are too many guilds, absolutely, but I see that as more of an issue on smaller pop servers then large ones, but the way I see it, if it was a situation where every single person in the game wanted a core spot in a raid team (that isn't the case, but if it was), then the game would probably need MORE guilds then it has now.
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90 Worgen Warlock
9455
A hardcore raid 10man team can't rely on only 10 members you think Paragon relies only on 10 people? You think a 25man team relies only on 25 people?

Real life can intrude and will intrude at any time. you have to have more people to fill a spot when necessary. So to say that a 10man team only need 10? no way.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
It only needs 10 committed people in core raiding spots, yes. Those other people are all just fillers, and many who if they have the confidence and chance, probably would choose guilds where they had a core position?
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90 Night Elf Druid
5980
03/15/2013 07:37 AMPosted by Eliil
It only needs 10 committed people in core raiding spots, yes.


It's very actually vanishingly rare for guilds to try and work this way, because that requires 100% attendance, a good number of alts, and top-end skill with all alts. The world-first type guilds have no desire to miss a world first if one person gets sick, and will shuffle people in and out of a raid to get an optimal composition.
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90 Human Rogue
16875
For the most part successful 10-man raid groups don't operate with just 10 players in their roster. If one person doesn't show up, you're down one raid night for the week. You also want to leverage as much flexibility as possible - is the encounter a range- or melee-friendly fight? Is it dispel-heavy? Does it need a lot of on-call burst damage? And so on.

See also this thread in the Dungeons/Raids forum - almost all of them suggest 11-12 people for a 10-man raid.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197581512
Edited by Antoniolo on 3/18/2013 11:07 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
Okay, about that, there are a couple of things, first of all, the game is largely about end of game content, the OP said there are "too many guilds" suggesting that new guilds shouldn't be formed, and a large reason why guilds form is to RAID.

What I am saying is, yes Antoniolo, it's good that when you have a few extra people in your guild to be able to call upon when other people in the guild don't show up, but I know from my own experience a year ago or however long it was, that a guild focused on raiding can get too large, to the point where people are signing up and clicking accept on a calendar, where it can be a situation where 20 people sign up accept on a raid, and the raid leader is forced into a situation where they some people don't quite make the raid team, and it's at that point, where imho there needs to be other guilds
for new raid teams to form.

The way I see it, whenever I do an SGI scan, I'm always picking up over 100 guildless players on a server, MANY of which are well over level 20 (so there certainly are not trial accounts at all), which to me suggests that there are probably more guilds needed, as many of those people, especially the high level ones just haven't found a place that's home yet. Of course, I'm usually on medium to full population servers, so yes, perhaps on a low population server, it might be different, but that's why I avoid low population servers like the plague, as I'm strong believer in freedom of choices.
Edited by Eliil on 3/16/2013 4:12 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
13305
You make a lot of very good points Pissedjedi :) I have absolutely no issues with small guilds that are casual, rp, erp etc. The issue i do have is trying to recruit (or pug) people for our raid. We had 9/10 for a week. Progression seems near impossible without a solid core raid group. Tuesday (8pm realmtime) we couldn't even pug any dps ilvl 470!! I have many friends in other guilds that are having the same issue.

So when it comes to raiding i think a good idea would be to merge ONLY if the 2 guilds could come to a complete and satisafactory aggreement. I personally do not like the idea of a merge, i can foresee many issues arising. Instead i would propose an alt swap. You scratch my back i'll scratch yours. ie: If you need a pally tank, ok i have 1 thats ilvl 482. I need a shammy or priest heals.
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90 Human Rogue
16875
Merges are delicate things. I have personally been in one guild that was the result of a successful merger, but that was only because the philosophies and goals of the source guilds were very similar to begin with, and everything was done in a transparent way.

Instead i would propose an alt swap. You scratch my back i'll scratch yours. ie: If you need a pally tank, ok i have 1 thats ilvl 482. I need a shammy or priest heals.

My druid's casual 2-night/week raiding guild has friendly arrangements with some of the other guilds on the server - one is a guild that doesn't raid but has people who are interested, for example. We also have regular backups from friends outside the guild (alts as well as mains). Since my druid's guild started raiding T14, we have had 3 new people join our ranks because they liked our raiding atmosphere, and it's given us more depth and strength as a whole. So this might be one way to go about adding to your bench, OP.
Edited by Antoniolo on 3/18/2013 9:28 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7195
thats like my server, except we still filled up.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13305
03/18/2013 09:25 AMPosted by Antoniolo
My druid's casual 2-night/week raiding guild has friendly arrangements with some of the other guilds on the server - one is a guild that doesn't raid but has people who are interested, for example. We also have regular backups from friends outside the guild (alts as well as mains).


I see what you are saying Antoniolo. Call me greedy but I want minimum 8/10 guildies in my raid. We are getting there, slowly but surely. All I can say is that patience truly is a virtue.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
8815
we dont recruit, and we also have stayed stable over the long run, the key to guild stability is gchat, answer when people ask, and dont cuss and be overly offensive, and people will enjoy the atmosphere. flame on lol its gunna happen anyways, or u could listen :)
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
I just wanted to add this topic...that it is really not necessary for someone in your guild to be part of a raid team, to me a guild is like, an alternative kind of family, there are some I have become really close to, others not so much, so it's very, VERY hard to switch guilds for the sake of mere progression, especially on a toon I play nearly every single day. Perhaps you need to think outside the square, and consider this, you have 9 guildies in your raid team (you only need 8 committed people for any guild achievement), so if a 10th person was to start raiding with the guild regularly, who was completely committed to the team...what difference would it make?

Also, as much as I might seem like a passionate guild person, I'm not really, as personal progression over guild progression I am fine with, I won't let my own guild hold me back if I really want to progress (hence why I tag along with a lot of PUGS). I might still be in a raid team now, if I hadn't been pressured to join that guild or they would find someone else, to the best of my knowledge, that group has fallen somewhat apart, though I do wish them the best finding someone able to make more of a commitment to them then I was willing to (though I attended their raids every single week, so it wasn't like I was not available or loyal to the team at all, only once was I ever late).

For some people, asking them to leave their guild, is like asking them to leave their family and everything they know behind...
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70 Draenei Paladin
12385
This thread has a theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF7HkpbLK9s

Do not deny the message!

'There's too many guilds... too many people' o/~
Edited by Deathpony on 3/28/2013 7:29 AM PDT
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70 Draenei Paladin
12385
Every day I have grown my guild by finding folks who are stuck in deadzones..... Guilds with no leadership or direction and I find them a better home. IF its not mine.. I find them a guild who can meet their schedule or requirements.


PJ, how sincere are you about this and would you be willing to put your money where your mouth is?

I speak of a proposition for the good of the Bleeding Hollow server, or the main your guild is on if not BH.
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85 Human Mage
8985
I don't know about your server, but mine is full of level 25 guilds with hardly any people in them. The GMs hang on to the dream that the guilds will fill with adoring new players... but they don't. I don't see an influx of new players looking for guilds, do you? If your guild has less than 5 people logging on weekly or less than 10 and you are a "raiding guild" please do the people in your guild a favor. Join with another guild and turn that desert of dreams of yesterday into a personal bank.


This whole situation reeks of cliques and weak uninspired/tired Leadership.

Sub hit it on the head early on in the post.
Folks have in-game goals and a desire to fulfill them.

A guild is simply one of the means to that end in this game.

If a guilds leadership for whatever reason fails to inspire its members and help them achieve their goals, then those members may and often will fall away.
When they " fall away" its usually in a smaller group that thinks " Hey i/we can do this better " !

And to their credit sometimes they do, however often they don't.

The evidence is clear. You notice it and in fact everyone notices it. We have a ton of smaller guilds with weak leadership that cannot inspire their own members and in turn leads to weak recruiting.

Weak leadership can look like a lot of things, i'll list a few off the top of my head:

Poor communication skills in a one-on-one environment
Poor communication skills in a group environment
Poor delegation skills
Poor personal organizational skills
Poor guild/group organizational skills
Inability to create a " vision " and communicate that to others
Inability to create or enforce guild/group rules
Inability to listen to others
Insufficient knowledge of game/mechanics/fight strats

And these just begin the list i am sure you could add more.

On a side note, i am not a big fan of 10m raid groups as a competitive raid group size. I think it forces people into smaller in-game social groups. If the game designers went to an even smaller raid group size, say 7-8m. You would no doubt, see social groups become even smaller than they are. An to me, that's a fail.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
Hai Debaol, what did you mean when you put inability to listen to others with the listen in italics?
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90 Gnome Warrior
5040
I see LOADS of guilds who try to recruit new members by calling themselves "levelling guilds" or something similar. I think that most of those guilds are either going to be sold once they hit level 25 OR the guild master expects to put together some kind of community/pvp/raiding team at cap, but is completely ignoring the fact that most people only really join those guilds for perks.

If a guild doesn't advertise itself as a guild that actually has some kind of purpose, players who actually WANT to do things with their guild simply won't join, and you'll end up with 900 man guilds where 99% of the population hasn't logged in for weeks, and there aren't any active people at cap, so people just leave and join guilds that actually say they're doing stuff.

The first sign of a guild being complete garbage is a massive amount of inactive members.
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