DoC a completely unfun mechanic. (Feral)

90 Worgen Druid
11015
Upon reading the patch notes a few nights ago, and finding that Nature's Vigil got nerfed big-time, I was pretty much forced into taking DoC as my level 90 talent. I was aware, before, that DoC was the best option for DPS, but I chose NV for the fact that it meshed perfectly with Berserk, and didn't add any complexity to the already-complex Feral rotation.

Now, it's as if DoC is a must-have if you plan on doing competitive DPS as Feral, and that's completely unfun. One can argue that the other 90 talents are still viable choices, but the DPS output of those are far subpar to the output of DoC. Weaving HT into my rotation just isn't something I enjoy, but if I want to keep my DPS at a reasonable level, I have no choice.

I thought the new talent system was supposed to give us choice, Blizzard. Instead of balancing the 90 talents to make all 3 viable choices, they just nerf the only other 'almost viable' talent, giving Feral Druids really only one viable option.

*Rant of an angry Feral*
Edited by Raxion on 3/16/2013 3:36 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
14905
Feral druids are not supposed to be a 1 macro button win kind of class. I really like Dream of Cenarius because it adds something different. Does it make my class more complicated? Yes but I like it that way. It also sets the good players apart from the average players. You can still use vigil if you want. If you do the math, it's really not a nerf. It's the same spell, you just aren't able to easy mode it with 2 other cool downs.
Edited by Khronuslight on 3/14/2013 2:23 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
14580
DoC is fine for Feral.

DoC is an abomination for the other speccs. We've told them this since Beta when they nerfed the !@#$ out of it.
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90 Worgen Druid
11015
Feral druids are not supposed to be a 1 macro button win kind of class. I really like Dream of Cenarius because it adds something different. Does it make my class more complicated? Yes but I like it that way. It also sets the good players apart from the average players. You can still use vigil if you want. If you do the math, it's really not a nerf. It's the same spell, you just aren't able to easy mode it with 2 other cool downs.


There's literally nothing "easy mode" about the Feral Druid rotation. Meshing NV with Berserk, in no way, made the Feral rotation "easy mode", it just didn't add more buttons for me to push. Popping a CD every 1.5 minutes isn't really something I wanted to do either. I had it macroed with Berserk, having it on a 1.5 minute CD killed that macro. Nerfing it to 10% damage just made it useless.

They should have just left the sht alone. Why would they nerf NV when DoC was, by far, the most powerful of the 90 talents? Why not nerf DoC? Choice dies, and imbalance reigns.
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90 Worgen Druid
11015
DoC is fine for Feral.

DoC is an abomination for the other speccs. We've told them this since Beta when they nerfed the !@#$ out of it.


I'm not saying DoC is weak for Feral. In fact, I'm saying the exact opposite. DoC is now so dominant at increasing Feral DPS, the other 90 talents aren't even worth looking at.

What I'm saying, is that the mechanics of it, in an already-complex rotation, just aren't fun in my opinion. The whole selling point of the new talent system was that we'd have choices. There is no choice now. DoC, or bad DPS, you pick.
Edited by Raxion on 3/14/2013 2:39 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
11015


I'm not saying DoC is weak for Feral. In fact, I'm saying the exact opposite. DoC is now so dominant at increasing Feral DPS, the other 90 talents aren't even worth looking at.

What I'm saying, is that the mechanics of it, in an already-complex rotation, just aren't fun in my opinion. The whole selling point of the new talent system was that we'd have choices. There is no choice now. DoC, or bad DPS, you pick.


To be honest, in PvE scenarios, DoC was always a mile ahead when gamed correctly. Its just that now its even further ahead :/


Yeah, I already knew that DoC was the optimal choice. I chose NV because it was the most convenient. Now, I really don't even have the option of convenience. It's DoC, or be bad.
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100 Tauren Druid
20335
Yeah, I already knew that DoC was the optimal choice. I chose NV because it was the most convenient. Now, I really don't even have the option of convenience. It's DoC, or be bad.


I personally hate the DoC rotation, sure it's the most optimal dps choice but I dislike having to waste PS procs that could be used when I need them not when the rotation demands it. The healing is all overheal and worthless, which was why I liked NV/Berserk combo... as that was smart healing.

I've gone HoTW now for raid utiliy sake, and the fact that fights demand so much movement I just find it too much to use DoC. /shrug.

Sure you get the elitist druids saying people who don't use DoC are bad ferals but personally it's up to you really. Raid utility can't be sneezed at and a HoTW powered tranq can easily save a raid.
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90 Worgen Druid
11015
03/14/2013 03:57 PMPosted by Waraila
Yeah, I already knew that DoC was the optimal choice. I chose NV because it was the most convenient. Now, I really don't even have the option of convenience. It's DoC, or be bad.


I personally hate the DoC rotation, sure it's the most optimal dps choice but I dislike having to waste PS procs that could be used when I need them not when the rotation demands it. The healing is all overheal and worthless, which was why I liked NV/Berserk combo... as that was smart healing.

I've gone HoTW now for raid utiliy sake, and the fact that fights demand so much movement I just find it too much to use DoC. /shrug.

Sure you get the elitist druids saying people who don't use DoC are bad ferals but personally it's up to you really. Raid utility can't be sneezed at and a HoTW powered tranq can easily save a raid.


I liked NV/Berserk for nearly the exact same reasons. The utility given from HoTW is nice, I can't doubt that, but it isn't the job of the melee DPS to save the raid, or to hurt their overall DPS potential in order to do so. I pop Tranq when it's called for, but my main goal is to do as much DPS as I can. Picking utility over a pure DPS boost just isn't something I can let myself do.

NV wasn't really that much of a DPS loss in it's former state compared to DoC, but now it's completely worthless. At a 496 ilvl, NV now parses around 98k DPS, HoTW parses around 99k DPS, and DoC parses around 104k DPS. The difference is huge, and I really can't see why Blizzard would want it to be like this. They nerfed the wrong damn talent.
Edited by Raxion on 3/14/2013 4:49 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
20335
03/14/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Raxion
The utility given from HoTW is nice, I can't doubt that, but it isn't the job of the melee DPS to save the raid, or to hurt their overall DPS potential in order to do so.


In progression raiding, dps is secondary to surviving the fight. There's no strict dps checks in ToT so it's mechanic driven... your dps position on the meters is irrelevant if your raid is dead. That's the thinking behind taking HoTW.

If your tank goes down, going bearform with HoTW is more critical than dps, whilst your tank is rezzed or not in the last few %.. It can mean the difference between a kill and another wipe.

They nerfed the wrong damn talent.


They nerfed it for PvP's sake thanks to the feral 1 shot macro. (NV/Berserk/Incarnation). I agree they nerfed the wrong talent, it should have been incarnation nerfed but Blizz didn't see that.
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90 Troll Druid
17085
DoC needs more then just nerfed. The ability needs to be changed to not add complexity to the rotations of any class in a overly restrictive manner. I just do not like the implementation, I think a 'hots and dots' talent in its place might improve things, just a simple +25% duration to dots/hot. More then that, make this extended dot work at all times..not just on a CD...and not require any proc/CD to be consumed to use it.
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100 Night Elf Druid
13235
DoC is very fluid now with the 1sec HT GCD.

I haven't done any heroic stuff yet in T15, but the transition from T14 normal to heroic forced me into using HotW a lot in my 10 man.

So far, it seems T15 can be done effectively with DoC and I'm enjoying getting back into this trickier rotation; traditional feral DPS is so boring.

If DoC is causing you issues, you need a better UI.
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90 Human Monk
8645
It was nerfed because of PvP, that's why.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17100
Wasn't HotW 2nd to DoC? Haven't checked since early dec. 6% bonus to agi vs 20%(10 now obv) dmg every 2/3 mins?
Or was it always 1.5 mins?
Edited by Felhorn on 3/15/2013 5:05 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
12200
Feral is soooo hard and I'm a special snowflake because I play Feral.

Get over yourself. Feral hasn't been significantly more complex than most other dps specs for a long time. And people that keep insisting that Feral exists on some special level of difficulty that other specs don't have are full of it. DoC adds a minor extra complexity to a fairly average spec.

Sure, people that manage to play flawlessly will do quite well, but that's true of plenty of other dps specs as well.

On top of that:

03/14/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Raxion
At a 496 ilvl, NV now parses around 98k DPS, HoTW parses around 99k DPS, and DoC parses around 104k DPS.


A total of 6k DPS difference if you're a robot playing perfectly is not gonna make or break your raid.

03/14/2013 02:13 PMPosted by Raxion
Weaving HT into my rotation just isn't something I enjoy, but if I want to keep my DPS at a reasonable level, I have no choice.


You should be using HT even without DoC, you can just be a bit more selective about it without DoC.
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90 Tauren Druid
12770
Maybe it's just me but the feral community just feels so rude and elitist lately. Back in wotlk when our dps was high and the rotation was harder and punishing the community felt so inviting. Now new or inexperienced ferals bring stuff up and people just seem so condescending. Maybe I'm just going crazy.

As for the op, hotw and doc are like max 5% apart when doc is done perfectly. It's never done perfectly and on top of that tot has a lot of target switching and adds and what not. So play what you prefer. There is very little difference.
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90 Worgen Druid
19060

And people that keep insisting that Feral exists on some special level of difficulty that other specs don't have are full of it. DoC adds a minor extra complexity to a fairly average spec.

Sure, people that manage to play flawlessly will do quite well, but that's true of plenty of other dps specs as well.

A total of 6k DPS difference if you're a robot playing perfectly is not gonna make or break your raid.

Feral is a lot more complex than many specs out there. Have you tried facerolling a frost DK? or playing a WW monk? Both are substantially easier to play with similar damage output.

While 6k dps doesn't seem like a huge a difference, between talent choices that is huge. Blizzard keeps saying they set out to make each talent close and more a of a playstyle choice. Seems to be like they are trying to force feral into the choice of DoC. DoC is very feasible on normal modes or 5-mans, but when you start pushing heroic modes it's just a lot to handle. And the 6k dps you claim won't make or break a raid does matter at that point.

The NV nerf was silly, if anything incarn needs to be reworked for feral.
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100 Tauren Druid
20335
Seems to be like they are trying to force feral into the choice of DoC


They very nearly did.

On the ptr, before our current t15 raid gear was finalised, the 2pc would have been to add a combo point after using a PS proc.

Me and a few others argued against this because it forced the DoC rotation onto ferals and gave us no choice in the lv 90 talents. Other ferals disagreed because of the prevailing attitude of DoC being superior and any feral who doesn't take it was bad.

Thankfully GC seems to agree that forcing the DoC rotation is a bad idea.

03/15/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Suhmon
Now new or inexperienced ferals bring stuff up and people just seem so condescending. Maybe I'm just going crazy.


It's the level 90 talents. Ever since DoC came out, those that use it seem to think that the ferals that don't are inferior. I personally think it's a terrible talent because the healing is useless and there's too much overload.
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