The "Alliance" is vague

90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
It was destroyed, but its people are still Alliance and even set up a new government in Kalimdor.


Which was destroyed.

And led by a Dalaran Mage from Kul'Tiras.

And never named Lordaeron, or capitalized on any kind of heritage from Lordaeron.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
Interesting to consider how "the Alliance" will evolve in the future. Perhaps, if the Horde actually win the war, and form a sort of global "Empire" (with Thrall as Emperor, of course he was just pretending to be good to rise to the top) if you will; would the remnant of the Alliance of Stormwind be called "the Rebel Alliance" perhaps?


Heh.

Anduin Skywrynn, anyone?
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42 Human Hunter
3090


You don't become a different organization just because your roster expanded.


I believe the only state that have continuously been in the Alliance since it's inception, without a major cataclysm, is the Dwarves. Everyone else has been nearly destroyed and rebuilt.


Original Members of the Alliance of Lordaeron:

All 7 Human Kingdoms: Stromgarde (remaining members), Stormwind (was Azeroth), Gilneas (who are now cursed with the Worgen), Kul Tiras, Lordearon (living survivors) and Dalaran are in the Alliance now. Alterac is the only one unrepresented.

Dwarves: Bronzebeards and Wildhammers are both in. Expanded with Dark Irons.

Gnomes: Still there.

Everyone except Alterac is accounted for.

Edit:

Oh and forgot
High Elves of Quel'Thalas: Still there though their nation split.
Edited by Hammerlóck on 3/18/2013 9:04 PM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Which was destroyed.


And its people then went to Stormwind.

And led by a Dalaran Mage from Kul'Tiras.

And never named Lordaeron, or capitalized on any kind of heritage from Lordaeron.


If this means they aren't Lordaeron citizens then you know what that means?
Edited by Vyrin on 3/18/2013 8:59 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Priest
10785
I believe the only state that have continuously been in the Alliance since it's inception, without a major cataclysm, is the Dwarves. Everyone else has been nearly destroyed and rebuilt.


Aerie Peak, Dalaran, Ironforge, Gnomerageon, Stormwind, gilneas are all original members, and are still in the alliance. It isn't relevant what happened to them in between, do you think when Lordaeron was destroyed and Kael joined up with illidan, Magni, Gelbin, Falstad and Varian all said "WELP, guess we aren't allies anymore!"
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63 Draenei Paladin
1680
Of Lordearon is striken from the name of the Alliance(and that only happened when Varimathras killed Garithos)?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
03/18/2013 08:58 PMPosted by Hammerlóck
Stromgarde (remaining members),


They literally live in a hole in the ground. And on another planet.

03/18/2013 08:58 PMPosted by Hammerlóck
Stormwind (was Azeroth),


Right.

03/18/2013 08:58 PMPosted by Hammerlóck
Gilneas (who are now cursed with the Worgen),


They left the Alliance. Then got Worgen'd.

03/18/2013 08:58 PMPosted by Hammerlóck
Kul Tiras,


Nobody knooooowwwsss.......

03/18/2013 08:58 PMPosted by Hammerlóck
and Dalaran


Dalaran was destroyed and rebuilt, like, what, three times, right?

Gnomes: Still there.


They lost their city and are, apparently, still kicking it as a refugee state in Ironforge.

And its people then went to Stormwind.


Really? 'Cuz i'm not seeing them anywhere. Or hearing of anyone seeing them anywhere.

If this means they aren't Lordaeron citizens then you know what that means?


Yes, it would mean that the Forsaken aren't Lordaeronian.

And it would also mean that nobody is Lordaeronian, and nobody has any rights to anything in that part of the world.

Which I can live with.
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90 Dwarf Priest
10785
you realize that EVERYONE that currently lives in stormwind, has lived in Lordaeron, right?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
you realize that EVERYONE that currently lives in stormwind, has lived in Lordaeron, right?


Everyone? Not at all.

Maybe a lot. Maybe a large proportion.

It hardly matters, seeing as they owe themselves to Stormwind now. Not Lordaeron.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
you realize that EVERYONE that currently lives in stormwind, has lived in Lordaeron, right?


Anduin and anyone his age, a little older, and younger hasn't.
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
Technically it's still the Alliance of Lordaeron, but calling it such is rather painful considering the circumstances.


I would agree to that, just that it has decided to go by a more up-to-date moniker. Perhaps to also sound greater than it was back during the old Warcraft games.
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Techincally, the bulk of Lordaerons are either currently still Scourge members under Bolvar, or Forsaken members. Most people from lordaeron did not make it out alive. If anyone read Rise of the Lich King, arthas pretty much slaughter a good portion of the population and raised them into his army
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If this means they aren't Lordaeron citizens then you know what that means? [/quote]

It means nothing....even if your strange bodysnatcher theory was true, it still means nothing.

There is something called right of conquest. And there is no doubt on who rules Lordaeron.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7110
Yes, it's the same Alliance. At no point was it fully dissolved. It's not called the Alliance of Lordaeron for two reasons: the destruction of the kingdom of Lordaeron by the Scourge and the loss of every other kingdom on the Lordaeron subcontinent (Alterac, Stromgarde, Quel'Thalas, Gilneas until recently) save for Dalaran.

If this means they aren't Lordaeron citizens then you know what that means?


It means the Lordaeronians who swore themselves to Theramore and Stormwind are no longer Lordaeronians and have lost any claim to that land unless they retake it by force from the Forsaken who also serve a foreign leader yet have the right of conquest to the land, gained fairly or not.

It also means that, if the citizens of Lordaeron who served Theramore and Stormwind can still be considered citizens of Lordaeron, you must concede that the Forsaken who hold territory over the majority of its inhabitable land are also citizens of Lordaeron.

Those who survived Southshore and became worgen would be the only ones considered "true" Lordaeron citizens under this logic and even they have undergone a drastic change in body and mind (worgen is not simply a bad hair day) and cannot be said to be the same people they were when they lived there assuming the Forsaken cannot either.

They also appear to serve not one, but three foreign powers since the change - Bloodfang, Crowley, and possibly even Greymane - losing any claim to Lordaeron by your logic.

Regardless, the Forsaken have as much right to Lordaeron as Stormwind, the Syndicate, the Scourge, the Gilneas Liberation Front, the forest trolls or the Argent Crusade do. Same right anyone has had to Lordaeron since it was founded back when Arathor split and it became the clearly superior kingdom in terms of resources and land. The right to Lordaeron is in the hands of those who take it.

Now, should there be some manner of territorial integrity after the war is over, that would still "entitle" the Forsaken to the lands they held before Garrosh was Warchief: Tirisfal Glades, Silverpine Forest, and much of Hillsbrad Foothills.

It would also probably entitle them to Andorhal, which was claimed by the Scourge before Hellscream and was won in as "fair" a manner as anywhere else (one could argue the Forsaken broke their truce by attacking raising farmers outside of Andorhal into undeath, but the Alliance did the same thing simultaneously and even struck first at Andorhal).
Edited by Mebahiah on 3/19/2013 9:25 AM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
It means the Lordaeronians who swore themselves to Theramore and Stormwind are no longer Lordaeronians and have lost any claim to that land unless they retake it by force from the Forsaken who also serve a foreign leader yet have the right of conquest to the land, gained fairly or not.


Protip: I don't consider the refugees in Theramore and Stormwind to not be Lordaeron citizens.

It also means that, if the citizens of Lordaeron who served Theramore and Stormwind can still be considered citizens of Lordaeron, you must concede that the Forsaken who hold territory over the majority of its inhabitable land are also citizens of Lordaeron.


No I don't, because the Forsaken are a radically different group that has no connection to Lordaeron while the refugees do.

Those who survived Southshore and became worgen would be the only ones considered "true" Lordaeron citizens under this logic and even they have undergone a drastic change in body and mind (worgen is not simply a bad hair day) and cannot be said to be the same people they were when they lived there assuming the Forsaken cannot either.


Worgen minds are the same provided they undergo the Tal'Doren ritual, which also fixes their souls. Can't say the same for the Forsaken.

They also appear to serve not one, but three foreign powers since the change - Bloodfang, Crowley, and possibly even Greymane - losing any claim to Lordaeron by your logic.


They're all part of the same military Alliance. They aren't serving them politically or relying on them to give them citizenship, they're simply under their command in the Alliance army.

Now, should there be some manner of territorial integrity after the war is over, that would still "entitle" the Forsaken to the lands they held before Garrosh was Warchief: Tirisfal Glades, Silverpine Forest, and much of Hillsbrad Foothills.

It would also probably entitle them to Andorhal, which was claimed by the Scourge before Hellscream and was won in as "fair" a manner as anywhere else (one could argue the Forsaken broke their truce by attacking raising farmers outside of Andorhal into undeath, but the Alliance did the same thing simultaneously and even struck first at Andorhal).


A) The Forsaken struck first at Andorhal by attacking Felstone Field

B) The Forsaken are in no position to negotiate being allowed to keep their territories since if the Alliance decided to, they could retake them by force.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
17875
So if everyone in SW is from Lordaeron and they own all the land in Lordaeron, are they just renters in SW? Is all the land in EK owned by people who have lived in SW for 20 years?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
Protip: I don't consider the refugees in Theramore and Stormwind to not be Lordaeron citizens.


By refugees, do you mean citizens?

Because they're citizens.
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90 Human Paladin
7745
Varian and Lor'themar were talking about bringing Silvermoon "Back" into the Alliance.

That should make it obvious enough.
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90 Human Paladin
7745
Posting again after reading the above argument.

So if everyone in SW is from Lordaeron and they own all the land in Lordaeron, are they just renters in SW? Is all the land in EK owned by people who have lived in SW for 20 years?


Stormwind was destroyed, but they still had a rightful King, and thus maintained their identity as a Kingdom. They rebuilt the City with the funding from the Alliance.

Refugees from Gilneas right now are the same. Greymane is still a King, and Gilneas was re-admitted to the Alliance as a Kingdom.

Lordaeron refugees don't have that sense of identity. Arthas toppled the Kingdom and no heir was crowned. The Forsaken disagree, and call themselves citizens of Lordaeron. Sylvanas claimed the Capital in a three way Civil War, because she has issues with Arthas and his couch. Lord Garithos would have crowned himself, but Sylvanas killed him too.

Tirion Fordring's claim to the throne is debatable, as he was stripped of Lordship. He reclaimed Mardenholde (and most of eastern Lordaeron), but how technical are we being?

that would still "entitle" the Forsaken to the lands they held before Garrosh was Warchief: Tirisfal Glades, Silverpine Forest, and much of Hillsbrad Foothills.


All of Hillsbrad and a large part of central Lordaeron belongs to House Barov. With the death of his parents and siblings, that would make Weldon the most eligible for the throne if Calia doesn't return.

The real question is: Does a peasant revolt result in a legitimate change of sovereignty?

If so: Does a dead peasant revolt count?

The Bronzebeards took the throne of Ironforge from the Anvilmars by force. They were regarded as rightful heirs. However, that's Dwarven politics.

The Perenolde family was deposed from Alterac, both by peasants and Alliance military. The other Kingdoms debated if they should divide the region up, or crown a new King from Alterac's nobility. It wasn't the choice of Alterac's people, or even its nobles.

So; in the event of one Kingdom betraying the Alliance, it falls to the other Kings to dictate the fate of its throne once they've re-conquered it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13215
"The Alliance Formerly Known as Lordaeron".
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