Pandaren are annoying.

90 Human Rogue
7765
Throughout the entire expac it feels as if Blizz was trying to play some kind of Aesop's Fables carousel that just went horribly wrong with circular logic and the fact that it simply doesn't work in the universe its presented in.

We can skip the moral quandaries in the first two conflicts between the Alliance and the Horde as those have been beaten to death with no end in sight by the forums already.

One of the first things Taran Zu does, and I don't think Im alone on this, is go out of his way to make himself sound like an ignorant racist who accuses the Alliance of fighting the Horde because they look different. That is the only possible conclusion he could have arrived at given the ten minutes he had to view the Alliance.

"Oh they are here and they are shooting at those green people, it must be because they are green and no other reason. I shall now hate them and make accusatory remarks based on this alone"

He gets slightly better after the Monastery falls and realizes that he was being a colossal @$$hat, but it seems that he now saw himself as no better than the factions, when he is still WORSE....okay maybe not worse than what the Horde has been doing, but we can blame the Horde writers for that.

Then as you travel across the continent helping out people in the typical WoW manner of Kill X of Y and Gather Z for me, you are always prodded by Pandaren about how being militant is bad and that war is evil.

Yes we know war is one of the worst things to happen to anyone or exist anywhere. You'd have to be some kind of bizarre sociopath to actually find some enjoyment or profit from REAL war (Dont want to give the impression that I think WoW is RL). Not to say that spoils of war isn't a bonus when defeating something that absolutely MUST go, but that is a rare tragedy to come about IRL, also Imperialism is apparently frowned upon go figure. But if you want to get that message across then you have to SHOW how war is terrible, instead of just saying "and that's terrible"

The local Pandaren are beset from all sides by all manner of horrors, from Mogu slavers, Saurok Raiders, the occasional Yaungol invasion, the traditional Mantid invasion, as well as other smaller foes. And one of their chief responses to these problems is to completely ignore it as it kills their friends and family and hope it gets bored and leave them alone, See Jade Witch who abducts children and the parents response is to just shrug and keep drinking. Their Shado-Pan are simply incapable of handling everything that is happening at once, because apparently the Mogu before never decided to launch a massive invasion into Pandalands during any of the previous regularly planned Mantid attacks.

Now it seems the only reason Fear got out is because we landed on the opposite side of the entire continent where we woke up Doubt and then Anger and Despair followed and the Shado-Pan fell to Hate and Violence. But according to the Klaxxi, the previous Empress tried to delay the Mantid invasion because she cared about Mantid life, when in truth she was terrified of dying and didn't want to be replaced at the end of the invasion. So really Fear was going to get one of the Empresses EVENTUALLY.

Really the only reason the Pandaren are still alive is because two military superpowers landed on their shores and began to blow up anything that looked at them funny, much to the Panda's benefit. And all they do is complain about it.

Why are we helping these insufferable houlier-than-thou bearmen? According to new Dev developments the Alliance is in Pandaland to help preserve their culture. The idea that we should celebrate and try to live life to fullest. Which would be fine without the taglines, also having a large standing army and military stockpile is bad and all of our defenses should consist of a few hundred elite troops who can only handle about one big problem at a time while sustaining heavy casualties and be incapable of helping everywhere at once.

The Pandaren idea that having a military is bad but having all these ornate valuables and tons of food everywhere falls apart when the Mantid attack, which causes the Yaungol to attack, then the Mogu see it as a chance to attack, and the Saurok attack because that's what they always do. The Pandaren culture was self-destructive in that they had no backup plan or ability to stop a strong invasion force. Their devotion to ornate structures and vanity was completely ineffective and a waste of time and effort when placed in a battle, might have looked pretty for the first 5 sec before the siege weapons tore it all apart but that's it.

I cant even think of a single Pandaren village outside of the Hidden Valley (which was until recently unpopulated) that isnt on fire, being raided, pillaged, or utterly destroyed by something. There was one Monastery hidden in the mountains in Jade Forest, but considering they did nothing while the villages below were being sacked by Mogu and Forest Tricksters, one has to wonder how long they could ignore these problems until they ran out of food.

TL;DR::

Were the Pandaren supposed to be shown as a culture that simply could not survive in a war-happy universe? Because if so then its doing pretty well so far, with the exception that in this regard the Pandaren way of life is not something to bother saving as it would simply collapse on itself if something really nasty like the Burning Legion showed up. At best the Alliance would show up, say "Shut up, you tried it your way and you failed miserably when push came to shove. You dont even have a centralized system of government and we are going to take over for your own good.". Which is better than the Horde's "Shut up and obey or feel free to die screaming".

Or.

Were they supposed to be shown as a wise people who could exist without armies and war? Because if that was the intention (and I think on the whole it wasn't this but some dialogue writers with that idea might have slipped the text in occasionally to try and get that message to the players) then the message failed horribly, because if anything it just proved that large armies and overwhelming military force is wonderful and will save us all from whatever bad things come our way.

Once again, lets avoid talking about the starter conflicts in Jade Forest if at all possible. This is about whether or not you felt that Pandaren were a race of annoying holier than thou stereotype wise people whose Aesops fall flat on their face in the Warcraft universe because it simply doesn't work here.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
This is about whether or not you felt that Pandaren were a race of annoying holier than thou stereotype wise people whose Aesops fall flat on their face in the Warcraft universe because it simply doesn't work here.

No. I think the Pandaren are among the only sane people in Azeroth.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/19/2013 3:18 PM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I like the OP.
Edited by Vyrin on 3/19/2013 3:25 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
10905
Good write-up.

The situation never bothered me because I always had this view:
03/19/2013 02:49 PMPosted by Kenthil
Were the Pandaren supposed to be shown as a culture that simply could not survive in a war-happy universe?


I believe yes. They were so effectively protected from evil that the vast majority of Pandaren had no concept of a real war. It's made even worse by the fact that everything is hitting the fan all at the same time. That's why they need us to save them.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
To me, living in Pandaria as a Pandaren would be a paradise. And you can't blame them for not being able to deal with the outside world - They haven't had to deal with it for 10,000 years. Your culture tends to bend around things like that.

Considering the Shado-Pan were able to keep the Mantid, Saurok, and Mogu at bay (Maybe with some help from the Order of the Cloud Serpents, they seem like a Pandaren Air Force), the Pandaren are a really good culture. The world would be a better place if everyone thought like a Pandaren.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
The world would be a better place if everyone thought like a Pandaren.


You mean a much deader place because the Legion would've won on their first try.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
The only reason the Pandarien are in trouble is because the Alliance and the Horde brought it. These people had no need for real armament and war preparation for many millennia and suddenly, as soon as the Mists parted, war is here and in your face. The Shado Pan is correct when they said that Pandaria would be better off without those factions.
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90 Human Rogue
7765
The only reason the Pandarien are in trouble is because the Alliance and the Horde brought it. These people had no need for real armament and war preparation for many millennia and suddenly, as soon as the Mists parted, war is here and in your face. The Shado Pan is correct when they said that Pandaria would be better off without those factions.


And what would have happened if the Militant Kaldorei falied to stop the Legion before the Sundering, or failed to stop the Quiraj armies?

Or if the Union of Night Elves, Alliance, and Horde failed to defeat Archimonde at Hyjal?

Or if Arthas won?

That Mist might help stop sailors from landing there, but against Nathreziem or Old God magics? I doubt it would be very effective as they comb over the planet looking for resources to claim.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
03/19/2013 03:47 PMPosted by Hammerlóck
The only reason the Pandarien are in trouble is because the Alliance and the Horde brought it.


The Zandalari were coming regardless of whether or not the Alliance and Horde arrived, meaning that the Thunder King was coming back regardless.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
03/19/2013 03:52 PMPosted by Kenthil
That Mist might help stop sailors from landing there, but against Nathreziem or Old God magics?

It protected them from the Sundering, the Cataclysm, and everything to the point that it doesn't show up on Titanic globes.

The Mists were nearly impenetrable, and all it took was the World breaking to part them. And even then, the Mists are still there, it's just the magical barrier that the Mists represent was broken so people could sail through them, if you can navigate through them which takes hours.

And what would have happened if the Militant Kaldorei falied to stop the Legion before the Sundering, or failed to stop the Quiraj armies?

Or if the Union of Night Elves, Alliance, and Horde failed to defeat Archimonde at Hyjal?

Or if Arthas won?

A bigger Shado-Pan could do it.

If the Shado-Pan and the Order of the Cloud Serpent could have won the Zandalari Wars, as well as keep the Saurok down, the Mantid at bay, and the Mogu down, a much bigger one comprised of all the races could do even better on a larger scale.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/19/2013 3:59 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
10905
To my mind the Shado-pan short story implies that sha and mantid activity was already on the increase before we arrived. That might be pure head canon but it's the meaning I took. Also I can't see that our arrival in the Jade Forest affected the Empress instantly. I feel like her plans had to already be in motion. Also I think Blizzard deliberately left this point a little vague.

Yu'lon believes the mists parted for a reason. I think the reason was to let us in to save Pandaria.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
Yu'lon believes the mists parted for a reason. I think the reason was to let us in to save Pandaria.

I don't think she means that literally, like some cosmic force parted the Mists because it knew the future. She was just playing the moment. You know the saying, "Everything happens for a reason."

I'm still of a mind the Cataclysm is what broke the Mists. There's no reason why the Mists would part to let the Zandalari in just so they could let us in to fight the Zandalari.
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90 Human Rogue
7765
A bigger Shado-Pan could do it.

If the Shado-Pan and the Order of the Cloud Serpent could have won the Zandalari Wars, as well as keep the Saurok down, the Mantid at bay, and the Mogu down, a much bigger one comprised of all the races could do even better on a larger scale.


The Legion is literally infinite. You can only use powerful magic to seal the portals that allow them entry into your world if you can fight your way to them. And no where does it show that the Pandaren have a grasp of magic like the Elves or Humans, which even then was barely enough when combined with the Kaldorei's powers and sacrifice of the gift of the Ancients.

Otherwise the Demons of the Legion will just pour in en masse until you are all dead, and remember that they are the first masters of Necromancy, so compile the Scourge onto the Demons as well.

And the problem is that the Shado-Pan CANT handle the Mantid, Mogu, Saurok, and Yaungol all at once as they were when we arrived. So there is no way that its feasible to believe that they could hold off the Legion. A war that cost tens of thousands of lives and weeks of fighting to just barely survive against.

Because even if they could hold their Island, the Legion would just summon endless waves of Demons from Kalimdor and Azeroth and destroy Pandaria through attrition because they would lack the ability to invade these 2 landmasses.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
And what would have happened if the Militant Kaldorei falied to stop the Legion before the Sundering, or failed to stop the Quiraj armies?

Or if the Union of Night Elves, Alliance, and Horde failed to defeat Archimonde at Hyjal?

Or if Arthas won?

That Mist might help stop sailors from landing there, but against Nathreziem or Old God magics? I doubt it would be very effective as they comb over the planet looking for resources to claim.


The Night Elves are the reason most of that happened. The world would been destroyed of course if they failed. Pandaria, isolated as it was, had none of the problems that the EK or Kali had. Since the Sundering they have had no problems and the Shado Pan kept things down and quite. I'd imagine that the only thing the Pandaren had to really worry about was the Mantid but looking at their environment they had that contained rather well.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
The Legion is literally infinite. You can only use powerful magic to seal the portals that allow them entry into your world if you can fight your way to them. And no where does it show that the Pandaren have a grasp of magic like the Elves or Humans, which even then was barely enough when combined with the Kaldorei's powers and sacrifice of the gift of the Ancients.

But what about the Celestials? They're powerful in Magic, and we know the Pandaren pretty much know everything the Mogu do about the Arcane, considering the Lorewalkers could find their tomes and tablets in old ruins.

03/19/2013 04:04 PMPosted by Kenthil
And the problem is that the Shado-Pan CANT handle the Mantid, Mogu, Saurok, and Yaungol all at once as they were when we arrived.

But it is because we are there that all that is happening.

We trigger a Sha outbreak with feeds the Sha all across Pandaria, including the Sha of Fear, allowing the Sha of Hatred to gain enough power to burst from his prison at Niuzao's Temple, and letting the Sha of Doubt break Yu'lon's new body. And don't forget the Klaxxi work against the Sha of Fear as well.

Because we helped empower the Sha of Fear, the Yaungol are forced into Kun-Lai.

Because the Mists parted, the Mogu can put their plans to use the Zandalari to raise the Lich King into action.

And the Saurok still aren't a big threat.

It all comes down to the Mists. If the Mists weren't broken, none of this would happen. Luckily, the Mists also let us in to help.

Because even if they could hold their Island, the Legion would just summon endless waves of Demons from Kalimdor and Azeroth and destroy Pandaria through attrition because they would lack the ability to invade these 2 landmasses.

I said "If everyone on Azeroth thought like the Pandaren." I'm not just talking about the Pandaren themselves.

And if the Night Elves thought like Pandaren, the Legion wouldn't have came here in the first place.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/19/2013 4:10 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
10905
You know the saying, "Everything happens for a reason."

In a world where you can converse with your gods in plain language, and time traveling dragons can re-arrange events to their liking, I see nothing wrong with taking this phrase literally :D
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
In a world where you can converse with your gods in plain language, and time traveling dragons can re-arrange events to their liking, I see nothing wrong with taking this phrase literally :D

But even in Azeroth, Magic A is Magic A, and unless the Mists are Shaohao in a Bolvar Fordragon-like state, I don't see how they could hold sentience.
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90 Human Rogue
7765
The Night Elves are the reason most of that happened. The world would been destroyed of course if they failed. Pandaria, isolated as it was, had none of the problems that the EK or Kali had. Since the Sundering they have had no problems and the Shado Pan kept things down and quite. I'd imagine that the only thing the Pandaren had to really worry about was the Mantid but looking at their environment they had that contained rather well.


The Night Elves didnt create the Well of Eternity, it was left behind by the Titans. They just studied it and became adapt at manipulating arcane energies through it until Sargaeras caught sight of it like a beacon in the nether.

He then seduced Azshara through the prospect of greater arcane knowledge to use it as a portal strong enough to enter Azeroth, as well as turn a large portion of the Kaldorei into servants of the Legion.

So really the Night Elves weren't responsible for the Well as the Titans left it behind in the first place. And had they not been a capable militant race they would have fallen as Sargaeras would have found Azeroth through the Well 'eventually' and used lesser demons to seed portals to allow greater demons in. Tricking the Highborne was just pragmatic of him.

And Id hardly consider a big wall a good defense when the majority of your enemies force can just fly over and on it. Plus we see it fails in Four Winds as the Mantid vanguard beguns to push into the Valley.

As for the Mists, we dont know what that is. Maybe Blizzard doesn't have it down as to what they want the reason for the parting to be. Maybe they will keep it ambiguous. Maybe the Mists was an extension of Pandaria's energies when the land was tainted by the breath of Y'Shaarj and decided to part when it saw a chance to begin havoc. Maybe it was a spell by the Emperor and it eventually just wore off and the 3 Jade mosaics foretold of the chaos that would come when that day came. Maybe the Mists just saw it was Tuesday and decided to just up and quit for the lolz. We dont know because Blizzard hasn't told us why, so we can only guess.

But we can make decisions on what we do see in game.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
03/19/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Kenthil
So really the Night Elves weren't responsible for the Well as the Titans left it behind in the first place.


No they aren't responsible for the Well or their evolution from Trolls which was the result of hanging around the thing for so long. They are, however, responsible for getting the Legion's attention and letting them in. They started the troubles of Azeroth.

Plus the we caused the massive Sha outbreak when the Horde and Alliance set foot upon Pandaria. That caused a massive chain reaction that the Horde and Alliance has to help clean up because we caused it.
Edited by Hammerlóck on 3/19/2013 4:27 PM PDT
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
03/19/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Kenthil
And Id hardly consider a big wall a good defense when the majority of your enemies force can just fly over and on it.

Most Mantid cut off their wings when they reach adulthood. Only a select few can fly.
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