Saving Thrall: Will the real Thrall please...

100 Troll Hunter
14885
Rather than plopping the entire conflict on the Horde again, why not have Varian decide, after the Siege of Orgrimmar is concluded, to renege on his supposed agreement with the Horde rebels and just kill everyone in the city, only to have the Alliance pushed out by an outraged Thrall, who then pledges to preserve the Horde at any cost?

That way, the Alliance player base gets to see their faction taking the conflict seriously, you get to see Thrall commit to the war, and the Horde's fight with the Alliance no longer looks like a kid eating glue from the jar, because they'd finally have a good reason to fight.


I wouldn't mind this, but I think it would be another huge 180 for Varian after we just had a patch dedicated to making him a nicer character. It would be really out of character for him to do something like this at this point. Please remember that a lot of people really hated his character when he openly attacked Thrall and I don't see this helping one bit.

I think it should probably be a more furious and vengeful character, like Tyrande or Jaina. Hell, I would like Genn to do something that would actually stir conversation as well.

I agree, it's a good idea, but Varian shouldn't be the one trying to make it happen, I think it should be Tyrande.

If this actually does happen, I could accept Thrall as my Warchief again. But only if he dons the Doomhammer Plate again.

I miss when Thrall was an Orc, and not a green Human.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/20/2013 10:04 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
I miss when Thrall was an Orc, and not a green Human.


When was that?

I don't want the war to continue. I want Thrall to GTFO, and Vol'jin to step in as the new leader. I want Vol'jin to realize that they have to earn the respect and regard of the Alliance, and takes stes to that regard, showing they can forgo their own interests to an extent to prove they will be good allies to the Alliance.

And then I want Varian and Vol'jin to work together to take Garrosh out, and then after the questions of the spoils of Garrosh's war are settled when taken with the need to keep the Horde from needing to go to war, they set to preparing for the Legion's return. And not just waiting passively, getting set to take the fight to them.

Failing that, and should we need to keep the tensions high, let Thrall back in. Thrall becomes the voice of the rebellion, and the Alliance and the Rebels kill Garrosh, smash his works, et cetera. And then when Varian nods his approval, and says he wants to see the architects of the war, and those who goaded it on punished, Thrall snaps at him, asking if not enough orc blood has been spilled.

Varian replies with the fact that unless the orcs change, only more orc blood will be spilled down through the years, until the orcs stand victorious upon a shattered world, or they themselves are dead, victims of their own bloodlust.

Thrall furiously denies this, and decrees that with the death of Garrosh, they have attoned for their crimes.

Varian shakes his head, and tells him that his attonement has only jsut begun. And then explosions mar the silence. Thrall demands to know what just happened. Varian, walking to a portal to Stormwind, asks him if he had not thought it odd that the gnomes had not been seen during the battle. He tells him that they had been busy, mining the supplies, the forges, the water supplies, anything remotely useful for a war effort. And since Thrall was only interested in dictating the terms personally, Varian would have none of it.

Varian leaves with a comment about hoping Thrall his happy with the consequences of his actions.
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100 Troll Hunter
14885
That all seems good to me, Arkturas.

The Alliance can go ahead and blow up the anvils and forges and the places that craft weapons of war. But the Horde won't be occupied. They can try, so they can be the villain for at least once in WoW's lifetime.
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100 Night Elf Priest
10335
Thrall demands to know what just happened. Varian, walking to a portal to Stormwind, asks him if he had not thought it odd that the gnomes had not been seen during the battle. He tells him that they had been busy, mining the supplies, the forges, the water supplies, anything remotely useful for a war effort. And since Thrall was only interested in dictating the terms personally, Varian would have none of it.


And people think we have no usefulness.

Personally I see your second idea happening more. A peaceful ending to the Siege just seems very unlikely. Alliance will be packed together with Rebellion in that City and tensions will be extremely high. I wouldn't be surprised if you have Alliance like Rogers who want to try and finish the Horde or continue fighting, but *sigh* Varian counters the argument so on so forth.
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After the crap we had to go through in Cata, only to finally get a moment of glory in the Siege of Orgrimmar and then have that taken away by god mode Thrall who already steals the spotlight enough as it is, by having him chase us out of Orgrimmar with our tails tucked between our legs...

I'd cancel my subscription. And I don't mean like the Night Elf fans who get frustrated, say they'll do it, but don't. I mean I would straight up quit WoW.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15995
We need more war. My honor gains demand it.
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100 Night Elf Priest
10335
After the crap we had to go through in Cata, only to finally get a moment of glory in the Siege of Orgrimmar and then have that taken away by god mode Thrall who already steals the spotlight enough as it is, by having him chase us out of Orgrimmar with our tails tucked between our legs...

I'd cancel my subscription. And I don't mean like the Night Elf fans who get frustrated, say they'll do it, but don't. I mean I would straight up quit WoW.


I would like the Alliance to leave of their own volition.

I know he's going to have a part, but I kind of wish Thrall would just go away.
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100 Troll Hunter
14885
After the crap we had to go through in Cata, only to finally get a moment of glory in the Siege of Orgrimmar and then have that taken away by god mode Thrall who already steals the spotlight enough as it is, by having him chase us out of Orgrimmar with our tails tucked between our legs...

Who said that would happen?

With the forces gathered in the Rebellion (Honestly the majority of the Horde, just minus the majority of the Orcs), particularly if Vol'jin recruits the Zandalari, we should be able to push the Alliance back after Garrosh dies.

Particularly, I was thinking Tyrande and the Night Elves want to occupy Orgrimmar, but the Humans and so forth don't (Maybe the Worgen do), and they get pushed back because they don't have military aid.

We need more war. My honor gains demand it.

You can PvP without war.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/20/2013 1:53 PM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
water supplies

You mean Mulgore? The place practically the least related to the war effort?

Seems a bit inane, don't you think? Singling out the Tauren for punishment for fighting against Garrosh?
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
You mean Mulgore? The place practically the least related to the war effort?

Seems a bit inane, don't you think? Singling out the Tauren for punishment for fighting against Garrosh?


As far as I know, Mulgore is not within Orgrimmar.

Tell me, has something changed?
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Who said that would happen?

With the forces gathered in the Rebellion (Honestly the majority of the Horde, just minus the majority of the Orcs), particularly if Vol'jin recruits the Zandalari, we should be able to push the Alliance back after Garrosh dies.

Particularly, I was thinking Tyrande and the Night Elves want to occupy Orgrimmar, but the Humans and so forth don't (Maybe the Worgen do), and they get pushed back because they don't have military aid.


The Orcs ARE the majority of the Horde. If they weren't, they wouldn't be keeping the other races in line by rule through fear tactics. The Rebellion shouldn't have the numbers to force the Alliance to do anything.

And Thrall is also about peace. Attacking the Alliance after Garrosh dies and forcing them out would only continue the war and keep the bad blood flowing. It's a **** ending for the Alliance.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
As far as I know, Mulgore is not within Orgrimmar.

Tell me, has something changed?

There are no "water supplies" in Orgrimmar, though.

There's a river, but unless the Gnomes manage to set up explosives to divert the entire Southfury away from Orgrimmar, throwing bombs at the river won't achieve very much.

'spose you could have the Alliance poison the river so that it can't even be used for crops, but that seems unnecessary.
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100 Troll Hunter
14885
03/20/2013 01:57 PMPosted by Katarn
The Orcs ARE the majority of the Horde. If they weren't, they wouldn't be keeping the other races in line by rule through fear tactics.

I think that's one of the (MANY MANY MANY) lore related lessons Pandaria is teaching us. (Not teaching us ICly, but we can see).

Those who rule through fear only stay in power so long as those they govern lack courage. That's what Cho taught us Horde players in the Jade Forest.

The Rebellion shouldn't have the numbers to force the Alliance to do anything.

We have to. We have to be a force to be reckoned with if we're going to be helping the Army of Light.

Again, it'll be particularly true if Vol'jin recruits the Zandalari.

And Thrall is also about peace. Attacking the Alliance after Garrosh dies and forcing them out would only continue the war and keep the bad blood flowing. It's a **** ending for the Alliance.

Thrall used to be about peace by any means necessary, which is why he kept Grom on a tight leash. He's not going to allow the Alliance to occupy the Orcs - That would just breed even more bad blood towards the Alliance among the Horde, except this time, it'll not just be Orcs.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15995
You can PvP without war.


It would have to be justified in a manner that reflects the current climate of the world. Either past BGs become "time locked" a la Caverns, or become designated "re-enactment" zones for lulz/gladiator-y things. New BGs would likely be focused more on "war games" than actual battle.

Arenas can already be justified as being outside of war.
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100 Troll Hunter
14885
It would have to be justified in a manner that reflects the current climate of the world. Either past BGs become "time locked" a la Caverns, or become designated "re-enactment" zones for lulz/gladiator-y things. New BGs would likely be focused more on "war games" than actual battle.

BGs don't need to be based in lore. The majority of them aren't.

Four (Maybe five) are based in lore, only two actually have an effect on lore. (AV and Gilneas)
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/20/2013 2:06 PM PDT
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We have to. We have to be a force to be reckoned with if we're going to be helping the Army of Light.

Again, it'll be particularly true if Vol'jin recruits the Zandalari.


It's bad writing if they do. Do you honestly think it's fair to the Alliance to be forced out of Org? Honestly? Have we not earned a little time to shine? To raid Org, kill Garrosh...and immediately be chased out? That doesn't seem like a big kick to the balls of Alliance players? I truly hope the Horde players aren't so selfish as to think this would be fair in any way.

Also, it makes Thrall seem like a massive douche. A lot of the current troubles are at his feet. He appointed Garrosh when everyone told him otherwise. Many of the deaths are because of his poor choice. For him to turn around and attack the Alliance, who has lost a lot due to his poor judgment, would make him a massive tool.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
There are no "water supplies" in Orgrimmar, though.

There's a river, but unless the Gnomes manage to set up explosives to divert the entire Southfury away from Orgrimmar, throwing bombs at the river won't achieve very much.

'spose you could have the Alliance poison the river so that it can't even be used for crops, but that seems unnecessary.


I was more referring to the supplies of water laid in to be used. Silos, etc. A loss such as that would be very damaging in the short term, as people might even begin to die of thirst until supplies can make it back through from Mulgore to make up the loss, and hurtful in the long term, as the loss of whatever they use to store the water needs to be made up.

Additionally, where does the water in the valley of honor come from? The Southfury, or somewhere in Azshara?

With the forces gathered in the Rebellion (Honestly the majority of the Horde, just minus the majority of the Orcs), particularly if Vol'jin recruits the Zandalari, we should be able to push the Alliance back after Garrosh dies.


This is not logically supportable. Garrosh is supported by a majority, or at least a very strong minority and tolerated by a majority. Either this holds true across all races, or if it only the orcs, then the orcs compose a large majority of the Horde. It is the latter that is true, I would say.

Seeing as he commands his majority or strong minority, and given that losses amongst this group will be heavy, the strength of the Horde will natually have to drop heavily.

Unless losses are disproportionally placed on the Alliance leading up to the Siege, it should enjoy a marked advantage over the Horde, even if that advantage cannot be used in Orgrimmar immediately. Additionally, I would say the Alliance has always had a marked advantage over the Horde, but that is a debate for another thread. Leaving that aside, it might be conceivable that the Rebels would be able to match the Alliance forces in the SoO, and thus be able to force them out, especially if they plan for treachery earlier.

However given the assumptions that Garrosh's supporters are a majority, ( or strong minority), and that losses amongst this group will no doubt be heavy, logically, this would leave the Horde as being composed of largely those who were the Rebels, who can be at best a minority.

Thus, we can say that any war after that point should be short and decisive for the Alliance.
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100 Troll Hunter
14885
03/20/2013 02:07 PMPosted by Katarn
It's bad writing if they do. Do you honestly think it's fair to the Alliance to be forced out of Org? Honestly? Have we not earned a little time to shine? To raid Org, kill Garrosh...and immediately be chased out? That doesn't seem like a big kick to the balls of Alliance players?

Soo... What are we supposed to do? Let Orgrimmar be turned into a giant Internment Camp?
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Soo... What are we supposed to do? Let Orgrimmar be turned into a giant Internment Camp?


I'm a huge fan of Varian and am confident enough in my knowledge of his character to say that if he felt the Horde would be able to control itself with the death of Garrosh, he would leave on peaceful terms.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15995
We have to be a force to be reckoned with if we're going to be helping the Army of Light.


That's assuming there will even be an Army of the Light. Remember that Velen's visions have several different paths and can be hit or miss depending on the situation. He could just as easily have a future vision that sees no gilded army led by Derpuin, but splintered factions begrudgingly charging the Legion just so they can go back to killing each other after.
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