Saving Thrall: Will the real Thrall please...

100 Troll Hunter
13645
I'm a huge fan of Varian and am confident enough in my knowledge of his character to say that if he felt the Horde would be able to control itself with the death of Garrosh, he would leave on peaceful terms.

And so, the forums blow up with discontent and rage.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
Four (Maybe five) are based in lore, only two actually have an effect on lore. (AV and Gilneas)

Actually, Alterac Valley isn't even canonical anymore, because I rather doubt the Alliance is doing its damnedest to kill a blind, senile old man a wheelchair.

We have to. We have to be a force to be reckoned with if we're going to be helping the Army of Light.

Yeah, many people are suggesting things to reduce the Horde to be about as relevant to the story as the Kobolds, but they do need to be present in every future expansion about as much as the Alliance does.
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100 Troll Hunter
13645
That's assuming there will even be an Army of the Light. Remember that Velen's visions have several different paths and can be hit or miss depending on the situation. He could just as easily have a future vision that sees no gilded army led by Derpuin, but splintered factions begrudgingly charging the Legion just so they can go back to killing each other after.

There will be. A story wouldn't give such great credit to a vision if it wasn't going to come true. That's just how stories work.
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And so, the forums blow up with discontent and rage.


Not if it's done the right way.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
03/20/2013 02:08 PMPosted by Arkturas
Unless losses are disproportionally placed on the Alliance leading up to the Siege, it should enjoy a marked advantage over the Horde, even if that advantage cannot be used in Orgrimmar immediately.

Which would be more than offset by the fact the Alliance is surrounded by three Horde capitals left untouched by the war while their own nearest support is half a continent away.

I really don't get this idea that having forces within the city alongside other forces who also want the city (but are more familiar with it), a continent away from any support and surrounded on all sides by fully functional capitals who're only friendly for as long as you don't try anything somehow means the Alliance has totally conquered Orgrimmar and that there's nothing the Horde can do to resist.

I'm a huge fan of Varian and am confident enough in my knowledge of his character to say that if he felt the Horde would be able to control itself with the death of Garrosh, he would leave on peaceful terms.

I can dig this, but I'm still of the opinion the Alliance and Varian's motivations and reasoning which would eventually lead to peacefully leaving the city should be made plenty clear before they even set foot in the city.

If it's made to show up as a surprise, I don't foresee that going over well.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15125
There will be. A story wouldn't give such great credit to a vision if it wasn't going to come true. That's just how stories work.


Said detail could just as easily be turned into a Chekov's Blank, a Red Herring Twist that throws everyone for a loop.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12420
Which would be more than offset by the fact the Alliance is surrounded by three Horde capitals left untouched by the war while their own nearest support is half a continent away.

I really don't get this idea that having forces within the city alongside other forces who also want the city (but are more familiar with it), a continent away from any support and surrounded on all sides by fully functional capitals who're only friendly for as long as you don't try anything somehow means the Alliance has totally conquered Orgrimmar and that there's nothing the Horde can do to resist.


Because all three capitals combined don't contribute anywhere near as much as Orgrimmar does.
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100 Troll Hunter
13645
Said detail could just as easily be turned into a Chekov's Blank, a Red Herring Twist that throws everyone for a loop.

It'll also succeed in making very little sense, since so much emphasis is being put on a goal of peace this expansion.

Because all three capitals combined don't contribute anywhere near as much as Orgrimmar does.

Bull.

Again, particularly if we get the Zandalari.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/20/2013 2:26 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Priest
10335
Again, particularly if we get the Zandalari.


Where are you thinking that you will be getting Zandalari to join the Horde by the time Siege gets here?

Is there some claim to this or just your own fantasy?

I'm not being mean I'm just confused.
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If it were the entire Horde vs. the entire Alliance in the middle of Org, I could see the Horde chasing the Alliance out. But this is half of the Horde Vs. half of the Horde Vs. the Alliance. The two Horde forces will be thrown into disarray. There will be chaos. Horde has never fought Horde before. But the Alliance? This is what they do all day, every day. They'll be organized and have numbers.

If the Alliance has 100 people at the siege and the Horde has 100 but is split 50/50 because of Garrosh Vs. the Rebellion, if Garrosh loses and both the Rebellion and Alliance take 50% losses, that still leaves the Alliance with 50 and the Rebellion with 25 giving the Alliance a nice edge. And that's being generous and assuming the Alliance lose 50 and the Rebellion loses 25.

The numbers just don't make enough sense for the Rebellion to force out the Alliance.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
Because all three capitals combined don't contribute anywhere near as much as Orgrimmar does.

Still operating under the assumption that the Alliance has total control of they city and that the Horde has none.

This isn't some sort of Turn Based Strategy game in which moving a unit onto a city tile makes the entire city yours.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15125
It'll also succeed in making very little sense, since so much emphasis is being put on a goal of peace this expansion.


What's to say this goal will ultimately succeed? We've yet to see what the last 2 patches hold for us, and Wrathion could just as easily throw a giant wrench in the whole mix. Yeah, he's the guy who showed us the doom and gloom coming to Azeroth, but remember, he's still a smarmy, two-timing black dragon.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20405
If it were the entire Horde vs. the entire Alliance in the middle of Org, I could see the Horde chasing the Alliance out. But this is half of the Horde Vs. half of the Horde Vs. the Alliance. The two Horde forces will be thrown into disarray. There will be chaos. Horde has never fought Horde before. But the Alliance? This is what they do all day, every day. They'll be organized and have numbers.

If the Alliance has 100 people at the siege and the Horde has 100 but is split 50/50 because of Garrosh Vs. the Rebellion, if Garrosh loses and both the Rebellion and Alliance take 50% losses, that still leaves the Alliance with 50 and the Rebellion with 25 giving the Alliance a nice edge. And that's being generous and assuming the Alliance lose 50 and the Rebellion loses 25.

The numbers just don't make enough sense for the Rebellion to force out the Alliance.


You are assuming the entire population of the Alliance is going to show up in Orgrimmar. In most of their zones they are fighting non-horde forces that they shouldn't kill all of their civilians while 100% of their army goes to Org.

Also, that's assuming Garrosh doesn't do something big against the Alliance in 5.3. What if the big event that Garrosh does is unleash Sha on all the Alliance Capitols or something similar? They will be busy.

On the original topic of "Thrall is a war criminal because he let WOW happen", there is no place for peaceful rational people in WOW. So Thrall and Velen sit silently on their thrones while we grind BGs.
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You are assuming the entire population of the Alliance is going to show up in Orgrimmar. In most of their zones they are fighting non-horde forces that they shouldn't kill all of their civilians while 100% of their army goes to Org.

Also, that's assuming Garrosh doesn't do something big against the Alliance in 5.3. What if the big event that Garrosh does is unleash Sha on all the Alliance Capitols or something similar? They will be busy.


Until I'm told otherwise, I'm going under the assumption that Varian isn't stupid enough to invade the enemies strongest city without the full might of the Alliance at his back.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
If it were the entire Horde vs. the entire Alliance in the middle of Org, I could see the Horde chasing the Alliance out. But this is half of the Horde Vs. half of the Horde Vs. the Alliance. The two Horde forces will be thrown into disarray. There will be chaos. Horde has never fought Horde before. But the Alliance? This is what they do all day, every day. They'll be organized and have numbers.

If the Alliance has 100 people at the siege and the Horde has 100 but is split 50/50 because of Garrosh Vs. the Rebellion, if Garrosh loses and both the Rebellion and Alliance take 50% losses, that still leaves the Alliance with 50 and the Rebellion with 25 giving the Alliance a nice edge. And that's being generous and assuming the Alliance lose 50 and the Rebellion loses 25.

The numbers just don't make enough sense for the Rebellion to force out the Alliance.

The numbers have a few other problems than that though.

It's not "the entire Alliance" vs "just the Horde rebels". It's all the forces the Alliance can pull out from every other front on the planet in time for the Siege vs all the forces Garrosh can pull out from every other front on the planet in time for the Siege and the Horde rebels (who're not operating on any Alliance Horde front, so they've presumably got a greater ratio of participants and total members)..

Then there's the fact the Horde, Garrosh and rebels both, have home advantage and the backing of three nearby cities (downplay it all you want, three cities to the Alliance's zero is an advantage).

Plus the fact the Alliance lost the top tiers of leadership of just about every single one of its militaries when they all showed up in time for Theramore to explode, so it's unlikely their advantage in sheer numbers is that huge anyhow.

There simply isn't any basis to be going around saying the Alliance's presence in the Siege of Orgrimmar means they've totally conquered the city and that there's nothing anyone can do about it. Sure, there's similarly nothing saying the Horde could just kick the Alliance out afterwards either (except for metagame, but I'm traipsing around that for now), but hey.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12420
Still operating under the assumption that the Alliance has total control of they city and that the Horde has none.

This isn't some sort of Turn Based Strategy game in which moving a unit onto a city tile makes the entire city yours.


I am operating under no such assumption, and it does not even fit into any of my arguments.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20405

The numbers have a few other problems than that though.

It's not "the entire Alliance" vs "just the Horde rebels". It's all the forces the Alliance can pull out from every other front on the planet in time for the Siege vs all the forces Garrosh can pull out from every other front on the planet in time for the Siege and the Horde rebels (who're not operating on any Alliance Horde front, so they've presumably got a greater ratio of participants and total members)..

Then there's the fact the Horde, Garrosh and rebels both, have home advantage and the backing of three nearby cities (downplay it all you want, three cities to the Alliance's zero is an advantage).

Plus the fact the Alliance lost the top tiers of leadership of just about every single one of its militaries when they all showed up in time for Theramore to explode, so it's unlikely their advantage in sheer numbers is that huge anyhow.

There simply isn't any basis to be going around saying the Alliance's presence in the Siege of Orgrimmar means they've totally conquered the city and that there's nothing anyone can do about it. Sure, there's similarly nothing saying the Horde could just kick the Alliance out afterwards either (except for metagame, but I'm traipsing around that for now), but hey.


Yup. At the end of the SoE, assuming the Alliance decides to kill or dominate everyone who is left it will be Alliance leftovers Vs. Horde leftovers...and vast numbers of Civilians who sat out the fight but will defend their home and freedom.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
I am operating under no such assumption, and it does not even fit into any of my arguments.

So then the Horde would still have Orgrimmar on top of the support from three capitals, compared to the Alliance's zero nearby supporting major cities?

I'm not seeing how this is supposed to give the Alliance such a significant position of strength, forces on the grounds or none.

Yes, I can dig that the Alliance would be at an advantage at the end of the Siege, but I sincerely doubt their position could afford them absolute control of the city, much less for the significant amount of time it'd take.
Edited by Kellick on 3/20/2013 2:57 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Paladin
12420
So then the Horde would still have Orgrimmar on top of the support from three capitals, compared to the Alliance's zero nearby supporting major cities?


No, because Orgrimmar is the battlefield.
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100 Troll Hunter
13645
Is there some claim to this or just your own fantasy?

Oh, it's my fantasy.

But it's something that should happen and would make a lot of sense if it did happen.

We know there's discontent between the Zandalari and the Mogu, and the Zandalari are using magics they don't want to use. So why not join Vol'jin? :D
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