Saving Thrall: Will the real Thrall please...

90 Troll Shaman
5420
See we all talk about this undisputed peace between the alliance and horde and gearing up to fight the burning legion again, but you have to ask yourselves.

What happens to all the pvp servers? Hate to say it but game mechanics will trump lore 100% of the time, and it won't make any sense when I stand next to an orc and see red text above his head.

The player character is a genocide on legs. They don't need any rhyme or reason to murder anyone with a differently coloured background in cold blood, peace or no.

As for the organized stuff? Proxy wars, mercenaries for various third parties, non-canonical battlegrounds like Alterac Valley, etc. Plenty of ways to justify pvp without war.
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90 Troll Hunter
12970
03/20/2013 10:31 PMPosted by Aviala
hopefully a way for players to become able to communicate cross-faction. (More RP!)

For the sake of RP, I want MOAR than cross faction languages (Parties! Neutral Guilds!), but baby steps, I know.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10555
For the sake of RP, I want MOAR than cross faction languages (Parties! Neutral Guilds!), but baby steps, I know.


Perhaps it they instituted something like this similar to how they're doing Thunder King LFR? Something like, in the first month, characters can learn the other faction's basic language(Orcish, Common). The next month, they can form parties - Perhaps raids as well, or that could be the next month. After that, cross-faction guilds.

As for the organized stuff? Proxy wars, mercenaries for various third parties, non-canonical battlegrounds like Alterac Valley, etc. Plenty of ways to justify pvp without war.


Exactly. There's plenty of ways to justify PvP without having to keep the faction war going. The only problem in world PvP in peacetime would be individual alignment, as in: Would Alliance only be able to attack Horde and vice versa, or could a human decide to jump in on the orc's side and beat up a few gnomes? How would a player keep their AoE spells from hurting the people they want to fight with and healing their opponents? Would it all be organized based on parties or something else?

All in all, I think the whole premise sounds very exciting.
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90 Troll Hunter
12970
Would it all be organized based on parties or something else?

I think that would be it.

I'd rather there was none of this whatsoever except on PvP servers, though. So on a normal server or normal RP server, you can't flag in the world at all.

Well, actually, now that I think about it, just making it party based would be better. Then people can still RP PvP.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/20/2013 10:48 PM PDT
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10 Night Elf Hunter
60
hopefully a way for players to become able to communicate cross-faction. (More RP!)

For the sake of RP, I want MOAR than cross faction languages (Parties! Neutral Guilds!), but baby steps, I know.
for the sake of the thousands of dead pve realms blizzard thought CRZ would fix (but didn't) cross-faction interaction would be a life saver and the overall player pool can actually result in raiding. Factions are a very crappy mechanic. ofc it wouldn't happen on pvp servers. I really think they need their own separate rules entirely.
Edited by Suraia on 3/20/2013 10:49 PM PDT
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03/20/2013 10:29 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
What happens to all the pvp servers? Hate to say it but game mechanics will trump lore 100% of the time.

PvP servers? Good question. BGs and Arenas and such are easy to explain away. But they could just do away with world PvP (Honestly, these days, a minority seem to actually enjoy it), or make it neutral PvP like in the Gurubashi Arena.


FINALLY!!!!

Something we agree on!
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8210
03/20/2013 10:29 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
What happens to all the pvp servers? Hate to say it but game mechanics will trump lore 100% of the time.

PvP servers? Good question. BGs and Arenas and such are easy to explain away. But they could just do away with world PvP (Honestly, these days, a minority seem to actually enjoy it), or make it neutral PvP like in the Gurubashi Arena.


Maybe this is just me, but "neutral" PVP still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I still do arenas because there simply aren't enough PVPers that I know to get an RBG group going on my server, but that doesn't mean that I don't seriously hate the concept. My character would not volunteer herself to kill or die for the entertainment of a goblin.

As for world PVP. Come on now, Blizzard wrecked it with flying mounts. If you defeat someone fair and square, you can't chase them out of a town or get them to go away, they just fly up to thirty-thousand feet and wait for you to leave.

My other issue is that I don't believe that the current war was done very well. I think that Blizzard needs to try again.
Edited by Kyalin on 3/21/2013 8:46 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
My other issue is that I don't believe that the current war was done very well. I think that Blizzard needs to try again.

The Alliance/Horde war was doomed, is doomed, to end poorly and at the dissatisfaction of players, and is deleterious to the story in general.
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90 Troll Rogue
9870
03/21/2013 08:43 AMPosted by Kyalin

PvP servers? Good question. BGs and Arenas and such are easy to explain away. But they could just do away with world PvP (Honestly, these days, a minority seem to actually enjoy it), or make it neutral PvP like in the Gurubashi Arena.


Maybe this is just me, but "neutral" PVP still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I still do arenas because there simply aren't enough PVPers that I know to get an RBG group going on my server, but that doesn't mean that I don't seriously hate the concept. My character would not volunteer herself to kill or die for the entertainment of a goblin.

As for world PVP. Come on now, Blizzard wrecked it with flying mounts. If you defeat someone fair and square, you can't chase them out of a town or get them to go away, they just fly up to thirty-thousand feet and wait for you to leave.

My other issue is that I don't believe that the current war was done very well. I think that Blizzard needs to try again.


That's why you have mage friends to slow fall you while you and your caster friends hit them with shuriken toss, dots, etc in the air.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8210
That's why you have mage friends to slow fall you while you and your caster friends hit them with shuriken toss, dots, etc in the air.


When we have a mage, which isn't often for me. Even so, that is so convoluted and time consuming that you may as well not do it at all.

The Alliance/Horde war was doomed, is doomed, to end poorly and at the dissatisfaction of players, and is deleterious to the story in general.


This is very clearly your opinion, but you seem to regard it as though it were a fact. Why?
Edited by Kyalin on 3/21/2013 8:59 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
This is very clearly your opinion, but you seem to regard it as though it were a fact. Why?

I'm surprised you ask considering your original post points it out.

Every character and faction's arc is hijacked, often made totally incoherent, in order to accommodate this "war in warcraft" mentality.

The Night Elves and Forsaken only joined the Alliance and Horde respectively so that Blizzard could shoehorn more conflict. The Alliance and Horde manage to be dumber than rocks and falling for the Twilight Cult's tricks every single time for the sake of conflict. Thrall is made the fool by bungling every chance at peace and putting Garrosh in charge for the sake of conflict.

Every Horde leader is made complicit or complacent in ways that don't make any sense for the sake of conflict. Every Alliance leader who isn't Varian needs to genuflect to him so he can show them how to run the Alliance Horde conflict.

It is the most damaging thing to the characters, factions and stories of the setting, bar none.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
03/21/2013 09:06 AMPosted by Kellick
This is very clearly your opinion, but you seem to regard it as though it were a fact. Why?

I'm surprised you ask considering your original post points it out.

Every character and faction's arc is hijacked, often made totally incoherent, in order to accommodate this "war in warcraft" mentality.

The Night Elves and Forsaken only joined the Alliance and Horde respectively so that Blizzard could shoehorn more conflict. The Alliance and Horde manage to be dumber than rocks and falling for the Twilight Cult's tricks every single time for the sake of conflict. Thrall is made the fool by bungling every chance at peace and putting Garrosh in charge for the sake of conflict.

Every Horde leader is made complicit or complacent in ways that don't make any sense for the sake of conflict. Every Alliance leader who isn't Varian needs to genuflect to him so he can show them how to run the Alliance Horde conflict.

It is the most damaging thing to the characters, factions and stories of the setting, bar none.


This I can pretty much fully agree with. Aside from the Kaldorei and forsaken joining their factions. I could still see those races joining the same factions. But Blizzard did not need to stoke the fires of hatred and war like it did. Thrall and the orcs could have found other sources of wood and planted farms long ago and developed trade with their allies. The forsaken most definitely did not to be all out cartoon villain evil and revel so much in their wickedness. The rest I fully agree with.
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[quote] I actually nursed a story about Varian fighting Garrosh, with the Alliance raid, and at the end, where Garrosh is kneeling at 1 HP, Thrall appears to demand the bloodshed stop, and tell Varian to spares his best friend's only son.

And then Varian beheads him.

Ah, good times.


@Arkturas:
"Varian beheads" Garrosh or Thrall?
. . . Which gives rise to another series of thoughts:

-Rebels and Alliance beat Garrosh, as you've described.
-Both sides stand around shaking hands and talking about peace and co-operation.
-Someone in Alliance (Jaina?) aims a vengeful finishing shot at Garrosh.
-Thrall heroically throws himself in the way and is hit.
-Thrall dies. Alliance is horrified; Horde is stunned.
-Vol'jin (or the next Horde leader) steps forward and coldly tells Alliance to get out of town while he can hold off his shocked people.
-Varian sensibly agrees it's the only thing to do, and repudiates Jaina's action.

Pros:
The war inevitably continues, even as the leaders try to make peace and plan for the coming of the Legion.
We get rid of Thrall, who will remain a world hero.
Jaina gets her/our revenge for Theramore, sort of.
Neither side looks too sneaky or too bad.
Each side has a powerful wild card (Sylvanus and Jaina), with all the possibilities that entails.

Cons:
Some players on both sides will be very unhappy: (Some) Horde won't like to lose Thrall; (Some) Alliance will think they've lost another battle.
Otherwise, no disadvantages that I can imagine.

edit for clarity
Edited by Trilliam on 3/21/2013 10:10 AM PDT
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