Lore contradiction? Forsaken have free will?

1 Gnome Warrior
0
(spoilers for early Undead quests and Silverpine Forest quests)

When I create a new Undead character, I am raised by a Valkyr and told that the Undead have free will. In fact, one of the first quest lines shows three different possible outcomes for new "initiates": one gladly accepts his role among the Forsaken, one is unsure and runs away, and one rebels, creating a splinter group of antagonistic Undead.

However, in Silverpine Forest, I'm given cause to question this. The entire plot of this area seems to center around the Forsaken's ability to kill their enemies, then immediately raise them as their own Forsaken soldiers. This seems to heavily violate the idea that Undead have free will.

My question: is this an intentional contradiction? As in, is there plot significance to be found here that I should keep paying attention to to see how it plays out? Or is this more of a "Whoops" in the writing department that I shouldn't scrutinize if I want to just enjoy the story?

(note: I did a quick search, but wanted to avoid spoilers of future events, so I couldn't dig too deep)
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Q: Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom: Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.


From Ask a Cdev Round III. It's sort of a 'semi' mind control. In that new Forsaken are taken hold of by the Val'kyr, and fueled by a rage-haze to use against their enemies. Then, facing their actions afterward, they're given the choice to join the Forsaken, or be executed.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
It's not a contradiction. It's game mechanics. You don't have time to explore and dissect the feelings of 8 or 10 random quest objectives.

Then, facing their actions afterward, they're given the choice to join the Forsaken, or be executed.

That's not true at all.

People risen do go into a brief rage, but they do not have a choice of "join or die." You can do whatever you want with your new unlife.

If you work against the Forsaken, like the Rotbrains, you will be killed, for working against the Forsaken.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 3/20/2013 11:55 AM PDT
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90 Undead Warlock
6190
I do think it's intentional, it's supposed to make newer Undead really question if they have free-will...or what free-will even is

Also you'll notice that those raised in the forsaken starting zones are former living people of Lorderan and the Forsaken seem to have SOME level of racial/cultural feelings of superiority when it comes to what kind of Forsaken you are (If your a former living Lorderan-ian your a true forsaken basically)

Where is those soldiers being rezzed by the dozens are just alliance Humans from Stormwind
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90 Human Monk
2665
It's not a contradiction. It's game mechanics. You don't have time to explore and dissect the feelings of 8 or 10 random quest objectives.

Then, facing their actions afterward, they're given the choice to join the Forsaken, or be executed.

That's not true at all.

People risen do go into a brief rage, but they do not have a choice of "join or die." You can do whatever you want with your new unlife.

If you work against the Forsaken, like the Rotbrains, you will be killed, for working against the Forsaken.


Totally. Because it's imperative that we instead go on and seek out Worgen Druids who are pretending to be inconspicuous bears.
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99 Troll Hunter
13620
Totally. Because it's imperative that we instead go on and seek out Worgen Druids who are pretending to be inconspicuous bears.

Hey, I don write the story.
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100 Human Paladin
17700
03/20/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
People risen do go into a brief rage, but they do not have a choice of "join or die." You can do whatever you want with your new unlife.


The Ask CDev answer said they get two choices: "join the Dark Lady or return to the grave".

That's a far cry from being able to do whatever you want.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9860
Can we please, please sticky the AskCDev answers? Seriously.

03/20/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Egrem
People risen do go into a brief rage, but they do not have a choice of "join or die." You can do whatever you want with your new unlife.


The Ask CDev answer said they get two choices: "join the Dark Lady or return to the grave".

That's a far cry from being able to do whatever you want.


Presumably, only battle-raised Forsaken get such a tough choice.

For obvious reasons.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
19010
Those killed in battle with massive trauma and immediately rez'd come back as "Anger Zombies" and are easy to point an the living and say "kill!" Only later the haze of battle drops away and they come back to themselves.

The ones who had come to kill the Forsaken in WPL were given the choice "join us or return to the grave" for obvious reasons.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5605
Can we please, please sticky the AskCDev answers? Seriously.


http://www.wowpedia.org/Ask_CDev
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100 Draenei Paladin
11650
In 5.4, orcs will be knocked unconscious, and then fed a drug. When they wake, a nice human will convince them to fight against the Horde in the battle. When they return, they are told they can join the Alliance or die.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14190
In 5.4, orcs will be knocked unconscious, and then fed a drug. When they wake, a nice human will convince them to fight against the Horde in the battle. When they return, they are told they can join the Alliance or die.


You really want orcs on the alliance? They can be..... problematic.... in their behaviour.

Personally the how forsaken raising their enemies but leaving them with free will thing seems really dumb to me. How many of those raise and forced into the forsaken's ranks would be nursing a grudge and a desire for revenge against Sylvanas.

"Hey, your my enemy, but Ill bring you back to life after I kill you, curse you so you really, REALLY hate me, let you get access to the inner workings of my society and security and then leave you with the free will so you can plot and plan your revenge on me for all the horrible things Ive done to you. All cause I dont want to die."
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100 Draenei Paladin
11650
You really want orcs on the alliance? They can be..... problematic.... in their behaviour.

Personally the how forsaken raising their enemies but leaving them with free will thing seems really dumb to me. How many of those raise and forced into the forsaken's ranks would be nursing a grudge and a desire for revenge against Sylvanas.

"Hey, your my enemy, but Ill bring you back to life after I kill you, curse you so you really, REALLY hate me, let you get access to the inner workings of my society and security and then leave you with the free will so you can plot and plan your revenge on me for all the horrible things Ive done to you. All cause I dont want to die."


:slow applause:

You begin to see the fundamental hypocrisy in the Horde writing.
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90 Human Death Knight
14770
03/20/2013 03:45 PMPosted by Trook
In 5.4, orcs will be knocked unconscious, and then fed a drug. When they wake, a nice human will convince them to fight against the Horde in the battle. When they return, they are told they can join the Alliance or die.


You really want orcs on the alliance? They can be..... problematic.... in their behaviour.

Personally the how forsaken raising their enemies but leaving them with free will thing seems really dumb to me. How many of those raise and forced into the forsaken's ranks would be nursing a grudge and a desire for revenge against Sylvanas.

"Hey, your my enemy, but Ill bring you back to life after I kill you, curse you so you really, REALLY hate me, let you get access to the inner workings of my society and security and then leave you with the free will so you can plot and plan your revenge on me for all the horrible things Ive done to you. All cause I dont want to die."

Well, Sylvanas does have a history of trusting dubious characters who inevitably stab her in the back at a crucial moment.

It may be remarkably stupid, but at least it isn't out of character!
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100 Night Elf Hunter
19010

:slow applause:

You begin to see the fundamental hypocrisy in the Horde writing.


Well, whoever the quest developer was for Silverpine was terrible at lore and just went nuts with "rule of cool". So many problematic lore moments that even Metzen was like "yeah...those quests were badly worded..."
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95 Tauren Druid
7770

:slow applause:

You begin to see the fundamental hypocrisy in the Horde writing.


Well, whoever the quest developer was for Silverpine was terrible at lore and just went nuts with "rule of cool". So many problematic lore moments that even Metzen was like "yeah...those quests were badly worded..."


It's ironic that Silverpine is blamed for being poor lore when it was perhaps the best of the revamped Cata zones to level in.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5605


Well, whoever the quest developer was for Silverpine was terrible at lore and just went nuts with "rule of cool". So many problematic lore moments that even Metzen was like "yeah...those quests were badly worded..."


It's ironic that Silverpine is blamed for being poor lore when it was perhaps the best of the revamped Cata zones to level in.


Not irony. Threeslotbag is correct. The awesome left no room for keeping track of the plot holes. To tell such a story, liberties were taken.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Oh good, we hadn't had a new Forsaken thread in twelve hours.
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90 Human Monk
2665
Oh good, we hadn't had a new Forsaken thread in twelve hours.


You really should stop keeping track. And, go get some sleepies.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10635
People risen do go into a brief rage, but they do not have a choice of "join or die." You can do whatever you want with your new unlife.


SOME people go into a rage when raised. not all, not most. being raised after a stressful death this is more likely to happen but never is it said to be consistant or predictable.

then you have the fact that the forsaken give the choice of join or die, or leave later like several former forsaken have done.

no forsaken have been punished for leaving. 4 were punished for stealing before leaving in vanilla, but the actual leaving was not the issue. also the dreadlord was the center of the quest chain and he was a long term sleeper cell bad guy.
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