Resto Shaman - Severely Lacking in T15

90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I believe that Resto Shaman performance needs to be seriously looked at in ToT. The spec is virtually unchanged from T14, where it had average output and strong utility. However, the only reason why Shaman output in both T13 and T14 was acceptable was because the fight mechanics allowed for a significant amount of raid stacking and made Healing Rain extremely effective. The mechanics that were causing Resto Shaman to be vastly underpowered in T11 and T12 were never really addressed in any meaningful way; the fight mechanics were just made more favorable.

In ToT, most of the fights require so much spreading out, and so much sustained movement that Healing Rain loses a huge amount of effectiveness, even in 25 man raids. Chain Heal is too range limited for 10 mans, and too slow casting, expensive and inefficient even when it is used under ideal conditions (hits 4 targets with Riptide on the initial target). Glyphed Riptide spam is not really an acceptable option on most fights either. It doesn't provide competitive output and is too mana inefficient to be sustained.

I realize that it is early, but the initial results from ToT WoL back up the perception that Resto Shaman are way behind.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/100/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

To put this in perspective, there is a larger gap between the 5th highest output healing spec and Resto Shaman than there is between the 1-5 healing specs. On top of that, Shaman are dead last on 11 of 12 fights. The only fight where they are not last (but are 5th of 6) is Jin'Rokh, which is the one fight where there is a significant amount of raid stacking, and where you would expect us to dominate (but we clearly aren't). The gap in 10 man is even more significant than the gap in 25 man.

I realize that Shaman have significant raid utility, and you probably will bring one in most any 25 man raid for Mana Tide/Purification/Stormlash from a healer. However, at these output levels, a Resto Shaman is essentially being brought as a token "buff bot", which isn't at all fun for the people playing that spec. On top of that, it isn't like specs with significantly stronger throughput don't bring significant utility too. You could argue that Holy Paladins bring as much or more utility.

I think that both Shaman output and mechanics need to be seriously looked at given the way they have decided to design the fight mechanics in T15. It's probably too late to make real mechanics changes (and the class design team dropped the ball big time by not doing this during PTR testing instead of rushing the patch out). However, an overall output bandaid increase is probably needed for the spec to remain viable this tier.
90 Troll Shaman
13250
I know you are new to the class but if history is any indicator this will be addressed in 6.0. It's the way it has been for a long time now.

Next week the gap will get wider as H always add twists that make movement a bigger portion of the encounter. All you can do is do the best with the tools you have. The 2 and 4 pc will help us out a bit. That coupled with how craptastic shaman t14 4 pc was (arguably the worst tier bonus ever) and all the other classes getting great tier bonuses it just puts more of a gap.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I know you are new to the class but if history is any indicator this will be addressed in 6.0. It's the way it has been for a long time now.

Next week the gap will get wider as H always add twists that make movement a bigger portion of the encounter. All you can do is do the best with the tools you have. The 2 and 4 pc will help us out a bit. That coupled with how craptastic shaman t14 4 pc was (arguably the worst tier bonus ever) and all the other classes getting great tier bonuses it just puts more of a gap.


The 2 piece bonus will be a solid 2-3% output increase, which is decent, but other healers like Mistweavers have 4 piece bonuses that give 5%+ output increases.

I am not as optimistic at all on the 4 piece. Assuming 25% raid buffed crit, you currently have a 25% chance to get an AA proc on any single target direct heal. At that same crit percentage, the 4 piece will add a 37.5% chance to give an AA proc, but that proc will be 50% of the healing amount of an AA proccing from a crit heal. For comparison purposes, it is more like a 18.7% chance (in addition to the current AA). That means that it roughly maps out to a 75% buff to AA. If AA is 3% of your healing (which is about where mine typically is in 25 man raids)without the set bonus, the set bonus should add about another 2.2% total output.

That is a decent increase, but is nowhere near as good as it sounds, and is also likely to be at best even if not worse than other healer 4 piece bonuses. It also devalues Crit and the value of the set bonus sales negatively the more crit you get. We aren't going to gain anything relative to other healers with our set bonuses; theirs are as good or better.

And, I agree that if anything, Heroics are going to result in even more raid spreading and further exacerbate the output issues caused by Shaman mechanics not being favorable at all to the fights this tier.
90 Troll Shaman
13250
Theres a different thread going in the shaman forums about the same thing but we all know blizzard doesn't read the shaman forums >.<. This would be my take on pretty simple fixes they could implement.

There are only two things that can be tweeked without PvP getting way out of whack. One is HR, which i think is fine right now, and the other is CH which should get a little something.IMO i think that they should remove the jump reduction as no other AoE heal of it's type is penalized while having near 100% chance of hitting all tartgets (WG/PoH/CoH). They removed the damage reduction from CL so it would stand to reason it would be a fairly easy thing to implement as they already have done something relatively close to that.Also think that TW should affect TW not create them. TW should be tied to RT and nothing else imo. Wouldn't mind seeing CH also be able to proc AA which tied to this tier bonus would help increase overall output.Some math that Auri did recently on CH and it's lack of any kind of punch.


edit: and to be clear i love the class an will continue to main it as long as i play the game. But if you go back and read patch notes for the past two expacs, their concern with the class or lack there of is pretty evident.
Edited by Harpoa on 3/9/2013 9:59 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
5735
Well, The issue is always the same.. We dont have any mechanics to maintain moderate raid spread damage, and in ToT, 9 of 12 fights requires spreading... So what can we do? Nothing...

Chain Heal is basically useless in MoP, long cast time with low healing and requires people to be close...

Healing Rain is ok, but requires stacking so its useless in this content too.

Riptide is a -50% Holy Shock and -50% Rejuvenation tied together making the spell close to useless. Hard to buff it without generating PvP balance issues. But the spell could use a buff, especially the HoT portion. Maybe 100% more healing and -50% duration (so double the size of ticks, but half duration)? (Quote from Puupi and Agreed)

We all know that we have some of the best CDs, but its not ok to play with a class that is considered a situational buff tool with average HPS.

Kills me the ideia that next CD i will start heroics with my pally 20ilvl behind because shamy is quite broken : (
Edited by Imbalanced on 3/9/2013 10:13 AM PST
90 Troll Shaman
13250
Maybe 100% more healing and -50% duration (so double the size of ticks, but half duration)? (Quote from Puupi and Agreed)


Agreed on your point but if they reduced the duration of RT wouldn't it gimp CH even more with less uptime?
Edited by Harpoa on 3/9/2013 10:12 AM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
17105

We all know that we have some of the best CDs, but its not ok to play with a class that is considered a situational buff tool with average HPS.


Average HPS is being generous. It's more like we are a glorified buff bot with atrocious throughput given fight mechanics this tier.

It isn't just spreading - it's the nature of the spreading this tier. Not only is the raid spread out all over the place on almost every fight; they are often spreading out and moving around so much that you can rarely get Healing Rain on 5+ people for its full duration, even in 25 man. Given that Healing Rain was 35-45% of our output in T14 for which we have no effective replacement, it's little surprise that mechanics that nearly completely neuter it destroy our output.
100 Goblin Shaman
8740
So, wait, are you guys basically saying it's back to tier 11 ten man type healing again? (Trust me, I hated healing that tier, but I did it).

Strange question here- and I see a lot of talk about riptide- but isn't, in theory at least, glyph of riptide supposed to help with our spread healing and movement fights? That's one of the ways I've used it (I change it depending on the situation).

I mean, I know it's not the greatest glyph we have, but it's something.

Though I do agree 100% that we really need some better spread heal mechanics- other than one that we have to take as a talent and can use every 3 minutes.

Off topic: Harpoa: I think you were prettier as a dwarf ;).
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/9/2013 10:24 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
5735
Strange question here- and I see a lot of talk about riptide- but isn't, in theory at least, glyph of riptide supposed to help with our spread healing and movement fights? That's one of the ways I've used it (I change it depending on the situation


Yes, but it works just in theory... Glyphed riptide heals the same amount as healing wave with the double cost of mana... you cant riptide all the raid because its lack of heal and to much mana... so people use it sometimes just to recieve tidal waves buff... so, another useless Glyph.
Edited by Imbalanced on 3/9/2013 10:35 AM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Glyphed Riptide is terrible because the Riptide HoT is only about 50% of the effectiveness of Rejuvenation. Sure, it may allow us to be a 50% Resto Druid (less actually, because we don't have Wild Growth and have a Mastery that works against HoT blanketing), but you aren't going to remotely be competitive. It also isn't sustainable from a mana perspective, and reduces both the HPM of Riptide, and removes the direct heal component, which can be quite useful.

You're probably better off dealing with doing absolute crap healing while moving (and SWG is on CD) than blowing a bunch of mana on very weak HOT only Riptides, and then just saving that mana for direct heals when you can cast.
90 Troll Shaman
17270
The riptide requirement for Chain Heal is a bad thing already. Other thread contain the math about how without riptide present Chain Heal has trouble competing with Single Target spells... which tell you EVERYTHING about why shaman's without Healing Rain are basically brought down to PVP-level healing output, while everyone spams PVE AoE heals.

Healing Rain needs a smart heal, long range/most of the raid is moving alternative.
This could come via a lot of different methods:
-Unleashed Healing Rain was fun, but it is time for it to go. That 30% boost just makes shaman's that much more situational. Buff other stuff to compensate.
from there
-Buff Riptide (periodic healing at least) by 15-25%, rework the glyph such that it only removes the initial heal (90%) if the target already has riptide on them. (perhaps baseline this)
-Make Chain Heal an actual AoE heal again (instead of a PVP-single target balanced heal). Reduce the cast time to 2.0 seconds, buff the heal size, buff the range, reduce the bounce loss to 15-20%. Bake in the riptide bonus (or nerf it to like 10%, but make the other 15% baseline).
or
-Give a partner spell, a chakra'esk choice, that let's the shaman summon sprites that smart heal the raid... shared/same CD as HR, same duration, same cast as HR. Obviously less powerful in raw healing because HR should still be preferred while stacked.
90 Pandaren Shaman
5735
Glyphed Riptide is terrible because the Riptide HoT is only about 50% of the effectiveness of Rejuvenation. Sure, it may allow us to be a 50% Resto Druid (less actually, because we don't have Wild Growth and have a Mastery that works against HoT blanketing), but you aren't going to remotely be competitive. It also isn't sustainable from a mana perspective, and reduces both the HPM of Riptide, and removes the direct heal component, which can be quite useful.

You're probably better off dealing with doing absolute crap healing while moving (and SWG is on CD) than blowing a bunch of mana on very weak HOT only Riptides, and then just saving that mana for direct heals when you can cast.


Thats what i've tried to say with few words. thank you
100 Goblin Shaman
8740
Glyphed Riptide is terrible because the Riptide HoT is only about 50% of the effectiveness of Rejuvenation. Sure, it may allow us to be a 50% Resto Druid (less actually, because we don't have Wild Growth and have a Mastery that works against HoT blanketing), but you aren't going to remotely be competitive. It also isn't sustainable from a mana perspective, and reduces both the HPM of Riptide, and removes the direct heal component, which can be quite useful.

You're probably better off dealing with doing absolute crap healing while moving (and SWG is on CD) than blowing a bunch of mana on very weak HOT only Riptides, and then just saving that mana for direct heals when you can cast.


Pretty much what I figured.

For the record:
The glyph itself has some conveniences for me (25m Stone Guard loves to constantly chain me to melee, HST/HR spam doesn't always meet my needs in this kind of situation; especially since SWG hs that cool dlown), but I don't consistently use it (learned the hard way not to spam it unless I had to ;) ).

I just felt it was mentionable because- even with the icky nature of it's mechanics and how much mana it costs- it's still there as an option for those types of situations.

I think my main point is, I would have killed for something like a riptide glyph back in tier 11.

(Pardon my stupidity this morning- just woke up and I'm not fully caffeinated yet).
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/9/2013 11:01 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
5735
I just felt it was mentionable because- even with the icky nature of it's mechanics and how much mana it costs- it's still there as an option for those types of situations.


Nope, you're wrong.. Glyphing Riptide is not an option... you just cant use this glyph without lacking heal and mana.
90 Troll Shaman
17270
I just felt it was mentionable because- even with the icky nature of it's mechanics and how much mana it costs- it's still there as an option for those types of situations.

While this is true, the primary concern of the OP is the competitiveness of resto shamans in places where HR breaks, not necessary whether we have spells to cast. Glyphed riptide is ~1/4-1/3rd the HPM of HR(UL, w/ ELW), and 1/8th the HPE. So Glyphed Riptide is actually a good example of just how nuetered a shaman is when HR breaks down.

Because HR is so good right now, even with only 1/3-1/4th effectiveness... we still use it. Because what else are we supposed to do?
90 Pandaren Shaman
5735
Agreed on your point but if they reduced the duration of RT wouldn't it gimp CH even more with less uptime?


Well, you are right... but its just an idea... if they change riptide they have to rework chain heal as well.. Reducing the cast time, improving the healing, increasing the jump range and removing the riptide dependence basically.
100 Goblin Shaman
8740
I just felt it was mentionable because- even with the icky nature of it's mechanics and how much mana it costs- it's still there as an option for those types of situations.

While this is true, the primary concern of the OP is the competitiveness of resto shamans in places where HR breaks, not necessary whether we have spells to cast. Glyphed riptide is ~1/4-1/3rd the HPM of HR(UL, w/ ELW), and 1/8th the HPE. So Glyphed Riptide is actually a good example of just how nuetered a shaman is when HR breaks down.

Because HR is so good right now, even with only 1/3-1/4th effectiveness... we still use it. Because what else are we supposed to do?


Got ya.

In other words, to make the glyph actually viable in those situations, they would have to reduce the mana cost of RT (or up the mana return) and up the heal to be closer to a GWH heal. Only arguments I've ever heard on glyph of RT is "don't use it cause it's bad" but not really explaining exactly why it's bad (other than losing the initial tick). Makes sense now.

But, yeah, I see exactly what you all are saying in this thread (even if the lack of coffee is making me sound stupid.) That's why I made the tier 11 comment.
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/9/2013 11:23 AM PST
90 Troll Shaman
13250
Reducing the cast time, improving the healing, increasing the jump range and removing the riptide dependence basically.


While all three are warrentesd i think that they go back to the fear it would become T10 all over. Which isn't possible any more with the lack of mana and crit that T10 had.

I made multiple threads on the ptr but never got any type of acknowledgement.

And like i said i doubt that anything will happen. They still haven't addressed the haste relationship with totems and it's inconsistancy that has now been present for 5 months. Haven't even made a peep about it.
90 Draenei Shaman
9910
At this point I'd just roll the bonus healing from Riptide-target into base Chain Heal, and make the bonus of CH on a Riptide the extra range from the glyph. Change the glyph to -mana and/or cast time.

I really dislike how CH is playing out right now (esp. in 10m) It would make sense to have it, as an AOE, much more cost-effective than GHW and have more throughput too. I get it that Blizzard and Shamans alike probably don't want resto to go back to CH spam-bot days, and I agree. But it's not quite right when the raid is mostly below half health and my response is to spam tidal wave buffed GHW.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]