Resto Shaman - Severely Lacking in T15

Sometimes I wonder how Conductivity would play if it was a baseline resto passive rather than an ugly talent no one takes. At least in 10m, it would be interesting.

Chain Heal needs some considerable re-evaluation. Right now it does very little healing for a high mana cost. The range restriction can already make it hard to use in some cases, but even in the ideal cases where you can use CH actively the spell does not feel meaningful enough. On my (poorly geared) priest, I feel glad when I get to use PoH effectively; on my Shaman, I don't feel any advantage to having CH over HW/GHW spam.

Our mobility is also greatly lacking, but it doesn't seem like Blizzard is eager to give more mobility to specs; rather the oppositve, but that would be a 'next expansion or two' thing.
90 Troll Shaman
6785
Just to reiterate some actual effects. I currently heal lead for a pretty casual 25m, went 9/16 h last tier and we had 3 shamans. I'm rerolling and I'm benching one possibly both.
90 Pandaren Shaman
12985
*French is my first language so bare with me plz*

Dear Blizzard! I can't not believe that you create an other Fireland nightmare for those poor resto shamy that we are. I really thought you would have not repeat the same mistakes over again.

Ok i have kill only 2 boss in ToT on 25 man and working on the 3. That don't give me the whole picture of the raid so far but on those other boss that I saw video gosh i'm scared.

on the second and third fight wow there is a lot of spreading involve and movement that give me head hake to try to figure it out witch stat i need to prioritize now witch talent to get and all that to not see a big difference.

like it's have been stat in this thread Healing rain is a big rock in our shoes as well as our mastery to be well balance in PVP.

the niche that resto shammy have for stack healing have to go! That's half of a niche. Since niches for other healer are tank heal or raid heal. That's not acceptable...

meany thing can be done and the two most important to my eyes is a change too our mastery since it's what i think makes us hard to balance in both pvp and pve. Since we are brought for our utility may be give us a utility mastery by giving a chance to increase the people healed dps/avoidance/healing. that would be way to op lol but what ever please you.

Second thing is HTT. This talent alone should be baked in the resto tree. and give us a new talent to help us in spread situation that will be difficult to chose between the three talent. Because right now there is now competition to HTT what so ever. Number wise maybe AG is close but the mana that it's take to be = in number is what make the talent a no no. And conductivity not working from chain heal is simply an aberration to me.

the talent 90 are plain and boring for healer the fire elemental should be replace by a water elemental and frost mage should have a icy elemental and not water. so that water elemental should performe some healing action and you can leave de earth ele like that or replace it by and air one that buff people in the raid by what ever you feel to do.
UF should be something like wild growth or prayer of mending on a 15 second cd it's not that much to ask.
and EB should be able to heal with a cast time and mana cost.

yes those talent can be use to help dps during a fight like we did on phase 5 of Horidon but to be honest even without my dps and the dps of the two holy priest the dps would have kill the boss even so. Plus you state that in ToT there wouldn't be any dps check for HM like there was in t14.

that my two cent hope you guys change things quick after nex week with all those HM kill there gonna happen...
90 Pandaren Monk
12990
Oh hey it almost sounds like exactly what I was worried about during MoP beta when Shaman was still my main. "2nd Tier of the expansion curse", maybe? Still won't be as bad as FL at least since there's several Shaman CDs worth mentioning this time (so maybe it is like Tier 11 a bit).

Shaman HPS is going to stay "artificially" low as long as the toolkit remains so rigid and hampered by whether or not HRain is any good, and CH is going to continue to suck as long as Blizzard and whoever else is "paralyzed" by the thought of a return to CH spam, no matter how ridiculous that notion is since basic math says "No" every time (there's a lot of you, or at least there was until recently). Not trying to be overly condescending, but I do occasionally like to call em how I see em, and I'd really like to play my Shaman again someday (I missed the Pet Battle exp boat on him, was more worried about my Druid/Pally at the moment).

I'm of a mind at this point that if so many are so scared of that fictitious boogeyman, they should just make a new spell altogether rather than mess with it, since it's not going to get any more forgettable than now and if Blizzard still doesn't think it's worth buffing it's a lost cause until whenever they decide to get around to it. It's unfortunate that new spells can't really be expected until next expac at the earliest, and as soon as Shaman HPS theoretically encroached "middle of the pack" territory people would QQ about the utility they bring, which would be very hard to nerf all at once and possibly disastrous. So I guess...um..."It's better than Tier 12", for what it's worth.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Oh hey it almost sounds like exactly what I was worried about during MoP beta when Shaman was still my main. "2nd Tier of the expansion curse", maybe? Still won't be as bad as FL at least since there's several Shaman CDs worth mentioning this time (so maybe it is like Tier 11 a bit).

Shaman HPS is going to stay "artificially" low as long as the toolkit remains so rigid and hampered by whether or not HRain is any good, and CH is going to continue to suck as long as Blizzard and whoever else is "paralyzed" by the thought of a return to CH spam, no matter how ridiculous that notion is since basic math says "No" every time (there's a lot of you, or at least there was until recently). Not trying to be overly condescending, but I do occasionally like to call em how I see em, and I'd really like to play my Shaman again someday (I missed the Pet Battle exp boat on him, was more worried about my Druid/Pally at the moment).

I'm of a mind at this point that if so many are so scared of that fictitious boogeyman, they should just make a new spell altogether rather than mess with it, since it's not going to get any more forgettable than now and if Blizzard still doesn't think it's worth buffing it's a lost cause until whenever they decide to get around to it. It's unfortunate that new spells can't really be expected until next expac at the earliest, and as soon as Shaman HPS theoretically encroached "middle of the pack" territory people would QQ about the utility they bring, which would be very hard to nerf all at once and possibly disastrous. So I guess...um..."It's better than Tier 12", for what it's worth.


Honestly, you can easily make the argument that the current highest throughput healer (Paladins) has as much or more utility than Shaman do.
-Devo Aura is one of the strongest and most flexible raid cooldowns that there is (now that this tier is back to magic damage across almost anything). SLT requires the raid to be stacked to be highly effective, and is barely usable on many of the new fights.
-Two tank cooldowns (assuming Hand of Purity is specced) on short cooldowns. Hand of Purity and Clemency both are amazing talents with amazing utility on specific fights
-BoP and Hand of Freedom both have strong utility on some fights
-Lay on Hands as an instant save
-The strongest personal survivability CDs of any healer

I realize that all of these are things that paladins of any spec get and some of the Shaman utility (MTT, purification) are spec specific, but you would have a hard time arguing that Shaman utility is so much stronger than Paladin utility that it warrants a ridiculous 30% output gap.

On top of that, GC and others have said repeatedly that their is not supposed to be a "utility tax" and that it is too subjective to compare utility across classes. Classes are supposed to stand on their own with competitive output, and Shaman are not even close to being there this tier.
100 Orc Shaman
HC
18610
I'm all for concern threads, but this just makes me facepalm right now.

>The tier has not been open for more than a week.
>These are normal modes where damage is pathetic(I was able to heal 2 fights with 4.7k spirit)
>The use of raidbots is completely wrong in this sense, link on a fight by fight basis use personal logs, find other personal logs, break them a part.
>Wait at least a couple of weeks for larger/better sample sizes.
>If this is how you feel shamans are in 25m, just imagine 10m.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I'm all for concern threads, but this just makes me facepalm right now.

>The tier has not been open for more than a week.
>These are normal modes where damage is pathetic(I was able to heal 2 fights with 4.7k spirit)
>The use of raidbots is completely wrong in this sense, link on a fight by fight basis use personal logs, find other personal logs, break them a part.
>Wait at least a couple of weeks for larger/better sample sizes.
>If this is how you feel shamans are in 25m, just imagine 10m.


Yes, it might be a little early, but the results overall are so universal and so damning that I don't think that it is too early to express significant concerns, especially because the problems were predictable and are class mechanics/fight mechanics based.

I don't think that linking personal logs is at all an accurate way to discuss class balance, because looking at individual logs is skewed by difference in (a) healing assignments (b) raid strategy (c) individual player skill. Unless you can seperate out player skill bias, looking at a large amount of aggregated logs is a much more accurate indication of class balance, because the sample size is large enough to account for differences in player skill. Saying you Raidbots is less accurate than looking at individual player logs is like saying asking your neighbours how they are going to vote is a more accurate indication of who will win an election than looking at polls.
90 Troll Shaman
13250
>The tier has not been open for more than a week.


It's not really just this tier. Its a continuation of last tier. Where everyone else got tweeked in one fashion or another. Patch notes don't lie.
100 Orc Shaman
HC
18610
>The tier has not been open for more than a week.


It's not really just this tier. Its a continuation of last tier. Where everyone else got tweeked in one fashion or another. Patch notes don't lie.


But the results still can't be determined after only one week of normals just being opened.

I don't think that linking personal logs is at all an accurate way to discuss class balance, because looking at individual logs is skewed by difference in (a) healing assignments (b) raid strategy (c) individual player skill. Unless you can seperate out player skill bias, looking at a large amount of aggregated logs is a much more accurate indication of class balance, because the sample size is large enough to account for differences in player skill. Saying you Raidbots is less accurate than looking at individual player logs is like saying asking your neighbours how they are going to vote is a more accurate indication of who will win an election than looking at polls.


My post on raidbots is based off of what the game developers look at, not what I believe about raidbots. To them personal logs are better than linking overall raidbots because those logs have context whilst raidbots doesn't.
Edited by Sensations on 3/9/2013 5:03 PM PST
90 Troll Shaman
13250
But the results still can't be determined after only one week of normals just being opened.


Agreed one weeks data is not enough to make the assumption. But i will say it is a pretty good indicator of things to come. You've seen this tier, the movement on H is going to make it tougher.
100 Night Elf Druid
15530
03/09/2013 04:59 PMPosted by Harpoa
It's not really just this tier.


It was inevitable that the weaknesses of a shaman's toolkit would smack them in the face again at some point. You guys have my sympathy.
90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
I know you are new to the class but if history is any indicator this will be addressed in 6.0. It's the way it has been for a long time now.


I have an issue with this. While yes, our lack of cooldowns was dealt with during MoP beta, our spread issues aren't new. They were very present during Cataclysm and little was done to fix it, rather blizzard stood by our "niche."

What reason do we have to expect anything different next time around?
90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
I agree with OP. Something feels lacking with resto this tier.... but resto is good in PvP already so buffing resto in PvE (in most cases) is hard to do but still keep resto PvP the same. I'm actually very frustrated because I main changed from resto shaman to resto druid because resto druids weren't ideal last tier, so now I'm stuck with the crap class again.... this is very frustrating. Honestly, MoP has been really fun for PvE so far but it's been the worst expansion to date (unless my memory deceives me) as far as healer disparity goes. Disc priests cheese progression and most mechanics so hard that it's not even funny. The healer disparity is ridiculous.
90 Pandaren Monk
12990


Honestly, you can easily make the argument that the current highest throughput healer (Paladins) has as much or more utility than Shaman do.
-Devo Aura is one of the strongest and most flexible raid cooldowns that there is (now that this tier is back to magic damage across almost anything). SLT requires the raid to be stacked to be highly effective, and is barely usable on many of the new fights.
-Two tank cooldowns (assuming Hand of Purity is specced) on short cooldowns. Hand of Purity and Clemency both are amazing talents with amazing utility on specific fights
-BoP and Hand of Freedom both have strong utility on some fights
-Lay on Hands as an instant save
-The strongest personal survivability CDs of any healer

I realize that all of these are things that paladins of any spec get and some of the Shaman utility (MTT, purification) are spec specific, but you would have a hard time arguing that Shaman utility is so much stronger than Paladin utility that it warrants a ridiculous 30% output gap.



I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, but there's two things to note:

-I don't really think anyone would suggest looking to Pally as the metric to shoot for when they are arguably OP right now and will likely be nerfed in some way. You'd do a better job convincing Blizzard that the class is underpowered/dysfunctional compared to the median. Number tweaks are realistic and Blizzard does them on a regular basis.

-I think pointing to HR and CH are "safe" things to complain about (negligible PvP effects), as well as fight mechanics/general HPS vs the Resto kit, but the comparisons to other specific class abilities likely aren't gonna get you anywhere, so I just wouldn't bother. It will be hard enough to get the "safe" things addressed in a timely fashion.


On top of that, GC and others have said repeatedly that their is not supposed to be a "utility tax" and that it is too subjective to compare utility across classes. Classes are supposed to stand on their own with competitive output, and Shaman are not even close to being there this tier.


What they say and what they do are clearly different things sometimes. You and I both went through last expac and dealt with everything from one of the most broken mana regen mechanics I have ever seen in any game (TC) being called "optional", to our spread healing problems "solved" by a boost to Riptide and AV.

Shamans are a walking Utility tax spec, at this very moment, and will likely be for the rest of MoP. I don't really know how it can be argued otherwise, considering how valuable and desirable they are to a raid for their specific set of buffs and CDs in spite of whatever legitimate HPS concerns they have. They aren't all tied to totems any more, and no single one is as obviously powerful as something like class-only Hero/BL, but they are still there. Most other ppl just don't care because at least a few of them (like SLT reducing overheal, MTT healing team booster, SLashT DPS booster and of course good ol Hero/BL, all in one neat dark blue package) are indirectly making them more awesome and affecting their HPS/DPS when you aren't there. How could they say no? How could they not save you a spot?

I don't think it's right that the end result leaves you feeling like a butler rather than a raid member, don't get me wrong. However, Resto Shaman have representation that isn't technically "endangering' other healing spots and is very useful in most situations, and for some people that alone is good enough, for better or worse. I don't realistically see any major changes to Shaman mid expansion adding up to a net positive vs the current situation, because almost none of their current problems are "new" ones, just old issues hiding behind a new coat of paint.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 3/10/2013 12:04 AM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
Honestly resto shamans, since cata, have been "bad" on non-stack fights, and that was overshadowed by the fact that there was a lot of stacking fights in T13 and T14, but now that we're in T15 and the fights are high, high movement with a lot of anti-stacking mechanics...it's clear that resto shamans have other problems that are coming forth. We're literally the only healer that suffers so much from being pushed out of our "niche".

We just suck for spread healing. We have the ability to keep a few riptides rolling (which usually have to be spent on the tanks/spot dmg), HST, and healing wave. Sucky sucky suckyyyy spread healing.
Edited by Dezie on 3/10/2013 12:07 AM PST
90 Troll Shaman
13250
03/09/2013 10:35 PMPosted by Pebble
I have an issue with this.


Was merely saying that resto doesn't get touched between expacs. Not that they are going to do anything to change spread healing. It's shamans weakness and i am alright having a weakness, all healers should.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
03/10/2013 04:50 AMPosted by Harpoa
I have an issue with this.


Was merely saying that resto doesn't get touched between expacs. Not that they are going to do anything to change spread healing. It's shamans weakness and i am alright having a weakness, all healers should.


The notion that we should shut up and accept this is ridiculous. Blizzard can and does make major changes to class balance in the middle of a tier. For a perfect example, look at Disc Priests last tier. They were performing terrible (most of which was being at low gear levels and not scaling well enough yet) and raised holy hell about it. In response, they were given several successive buffs to bring them in line (and which put them over the top OP by the end of the tier).

Shaman are in a far worse spot than Disc Priests were at the start of the tier if they had just waited for gear scaling to kick in. If it wasn't acceptable for them to be left in that state, it's definitely not acceptable to tell Shaman to wait until next tier or next expansion to be worth anything more than a buff bot.
100 Goblin Shaman
8770
03/09/2013 11:27 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
-I think pointing to HR and CH are "safe" things to complain about (negligible PvP effects), as well as fight mechanics/general HPS vs the Resto kit, but the comparisons to other specific class abilities likely aren't gonna get you anywhere, so I just wouldn't bother. It will be hard enough to get the "safe" things addressed in a timely fashion.


Don't forget absorbs. They still need to tweak them down a little. On my priest last night, my guild's ten man raid decided to go attempt the first boss in ToT (just to see the mechanics really- we're still stuck on tier 14 stuff <long story short, we started way late last tier>).

We ran a 2 disc, one resto shaman combo. Unfortunately for our resto, our absorbs were sucking up a lot of his potential healing- I think a lot of his higher healing came from HTT from the burst that was going out. Personally, I would have been happy running a disc/druid/shaman combo- I just prefer that set up.

My point is absorbs mess with numbers. Disc (obviously) and pallies both have this mechanic. When it came to the burst damage though, his numbers did pick up (disc only has a few AOE's don't forget <and one of those you have to spec into; the other requires you to be damaging the boss>). But I have also always thought that resto shaman need another form of an AoE, spread type heal. HTT helps- but it's on that 3 minute cooldown. We would need something that isn't on some idiotically long cool down that can also be used while moving.

In my opinion, you have to look at the combined healing among all the healers- not just your own personal numbers.
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/10/2013 9:56 AM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
8960
I agree that it is alright to have a weakness, but not if that weakness is prevalent throughout an entire raid instance.

A majority of the fights in T15 are spread healing and high mobility fights, and in almost all of those fights, restoration shamans have nothing to use other than riptide and healing stream totem, and honestly healing stream totem is the only one that really counts out of those two when we are considering just healing the raid without the use of cds. HTT helps us catch up a little bit along with a well placed (a very well placed) spirit link totem, and ascendance (would have been nice if T14 had 3 tidal wave procs instead of just 2, weak as that bonus was even with 3).

I heal on my holy priest/disc priest in another more casual raid, and I like the tools that priests have, cascade, lightwell renew, renew, and most of all prayer of mending; on my shaman I just don't see any comparable spells, chain heal is about the closest I can come to as an answer but that spell has been worthless with its range limitation and even with the glyph it just feels clunky with the extra cd added on to it. HST is probably the next spell that is comparable to some degree as it is a smart heal like prayer of mending.

The other healers I feel are in a good/better spot because their bread and butter spells have been looked at or designed in the current expansion, having said that, everything that shamans have that was designed in MoP works well, HTT, ascendance are spectacular, the difference is our new spells are all cd based so we have to stagger them which works, but if there is no cd available then there really isn't much we can do.

Before I go any further, I don't mean to even imply that druids and holy priests were great in 5.1, I know that is entirely untrue, and in some ways druids share the same flaw that shamans now face in 5.2 but for druids that involves stacking and just not having a great big aoe heal.

My friend pointed out that holy priests haven't seen a real buff since 4.1, but I've always felt that holy priests were so diverse that all they ever needed was some number tweaking, shamans on the other hand have a fundamental flaw, spread out healing is just non-existent. I would just like to see the same diversity when it comes to shaman healing and a huge reason why shamans are so bad right now is because chain heal, our only real comparable heal that we have to heal a more spread out raid was nerfed after WoTLK and now for some reason its considered taboo for us to spam that during an encounter even though disc priests spam atonement as a filler heal, and it is a smart heal, and it has 100yrd range, so I can't blame them at all for spamming it, but the question is, if they are allowed to spam a spell like that; why is it that CH is such a taboo spell? (no pun intended).

For CH to work, I think a few comments regarding how to go about that have already been posted, and for the most part this is what I read about it, reduce the cast time by 0.5 secs, increase the range jump to 100yrds without the stupid glyph and no cd penality, and buff its healing output OR increase the number of jumps to 5 (would prefer keeping targets to 4 but buffing its output, that way its more balanced for 10s as well), and reduce the penalty CH incurs when jumping to successive targets.

The other thing I just don't understand is how this got past PTR, how of all the people monitoring what was going on in PTR did no one even come close to seeing this happen when they were designing the raid instance? The fights are amazingly fun, and I do not think that the fights should have a stacking phase and cater to shamans just to please us, I love moving around a lot and doing some tangible healing in addition to that, but we're just so tied down by healing rain that its very very difficult to feel like my heals are doing anything without using healing rain, and I just don't understand how something like this got past PTR.

In regards to waiting for the new gear to come out and maybe we'll be better off then, I don't see that as a real solution to the problem either. Shaman heals have been steadily dropping off as healers get more geared, we were phenomenal when raids first started up in MSV, but I think its pretty apparent we don't scale very well with additional gear, mostly because of how useless our mastery is outside of the raid being at 30% HP or something which would indicate that we've done something horribly wrong and are about to wipe anyway. Something like absorbs scale incredibly well with gear, but having a mastery that benefits from players being at low HP when absorb mechanics are there to prevent such a thing from happening in the first place really just makes it frustrating as to why our mastery wasn't looked at IF the encounters in this expansion weren't designed to be pure raid wide damage.
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