Resto Shaman - Severely Lacking in T15

90 Troll Shaman
12525
03/14/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Bipst
I would love to see elemental blast double as a healing spell that maybe worked similarly to cascade and had no cast time when used on allies.


03/14/2013 08:52 AMPosted by Shammyjake
fix chain heal by making it instant cast with a cd and buffing it.


Have to think of the pvp implications for instant casts. Resto would inevitably become too powerful and be hit with another "totems are now spells" type nerf.

I think fixing shaman heals needs to have something to do with healing rain. Perhaps a glyph to make it heal for half as much at a reduced cd/mana cost, but heal instantly.

I know everyone hates that resto is so reliant on healing rain, but buffing chain heal so that it has the increased range at no cd would just make us super reliant on that. At least with healing rain there's a cd so you can fit other spells in between casts.


Not really considering how powerful unleash is in pvp.
100 Troll Shaman
12095
Casting chain heal in 10 man is like, running up a slip and slide while people roll marbles down it.

I'm not even sure if chain heal can even be considered a HPS OR HPM gain its so bad in 10man.

kinda sad since its a class signature spell =(
90 Draenei Shaman
Nyx
5135
I have to agree... our current ch is weak sauce in 10m.. I can spam it on some fights and still not keep people up from aoe damage.
90 Pandaren Shaman
13920
I have never complained about my shaman to this day, I have been playing since Vanilla... Back when the game started to first expand from the "Nerds" to the "Casual Nerds, or Hardcore Progressive Nerds that Face$%#"

But I have never felt this... crippled. I have been in many guilds, healed much progression... But this expansion just feels like quicksand. I remember healing Heroic Spine and thinking, sweet... The developers love me, but that was loosely based on the fact that our "kit" WAS required; ie Spirit Link Totem... Now, however, it again feels like quicksand we struggle our hardest to heal as best as we can, place Healing Rain if at all, or throw down our HST, which don't get me wrong is a nice benefit this time around on CD.. Keep up whatever we can when we can, but the sit there the same tier just... Single target healing? Throwing out GHW/HW/HS is.. beyond me watching the meters, or the heals feel so little... There are fights that I shine, indeed there are but that is IF we get put in the limelight for those.. I may not be the best at responses, but do understand where I come from when I say I play my heart out... just to be beaten to a pulp at a class I enjoy, and play competitively. Being scrutinized, or ridiculed because I "Can't Heal" or "Am being carried by our other healers" (We 2heal 10/12 Fights in ToT) it just.. is? I guess I might have to follow this reroll scenario, and roll a monk, or disc priest.
90 Pandaren Shaman
10765
We have allways had to play at a near perfect lvl to keep apace of most other heals, and if your playing at a lvl that everyone in the raid is playing to near perfection then you should probly reroll : / My point is this is nothing new, FL anyone, so if your expecting anything to change well thats what we would call insanity isnt it?
100 Tauren Shaman
13370
can't healing rain? can't heal. Simple as that.

Healing Rain and Chain Heal both need to be reworked - the problem is doing so without making Resto Shaman overpowered in PvP. I'm leaning towards glyphs for HR/CH that will function only in a PvE setting.

I sent out a ticket to inform Blizz about the thread... Answer is it will be passed so it can be looked over.

Just replying to show my support... I know that I'm not level 90 yet, but I've been following these issues closely. This thread alone is twenty pages; the Healing and Shaman forums have numerous threads about the issues we've discussed here. Players have posted numbers that show how big the problems are. This needs more than a looking over by the developers - this needs fixed.
I wish we had another BL class in my raid so I could swap at this point :( I don't want to force our Hunter into BM, specially as I've heard some bosses have been giving pet issues again.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8505
What is it about Shaman healing that makes it sub par so much of the time and what is it about Pally healing that makes it near top dog most of the time? I'm starting to believe the tin foil hat types.
Paladins mobility output isn't that different from ours. However, they got better spread AoE capabilities with LoD, EF, Daybreak, etc, than we do. They are also not tied to a puddle in the ground for most of their output, as they at least got the choice to take Holy Prism instead of Light's Hammer. Their absorptions also help them as absorbs are very good.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Paladins mobility output isn't that different from ours. However, they got better spread AoE capabilities with LoD, EF, Daybreak, etc, than we do. They are also not tied to a puddle in the ground for most of their output, as they at least got the choice to take Holy Prism instead of Light's Hammer. Their absorptions also help them as absorbs are very good.


I have only been maining a Shaman since the start of this expansion, but the history behind this goes way back. A lot of it is really the fact that both Paladins and Priests have been heavily reworked with every expansion if not every patch. Shaman are basically almost exactly the same as they were at the start of Wrath. They added on Healing Rain for Cata and a bunch of cooldowns for MoP, but the basic mechanics of the class are 5+ years old, and haven't really been updated properly to reflect more recent raid mechanics. At the start of Wrath, no one really had spread AoE healing except maybe Druids. PoH was still only castable on your own party, Disc wasn't really made into a viable raiding spec until about Ulduar and Holy Paladins had no AoE heal period until the start of Cata. The game has just changed a lot, and Shaman mechanics have not really kept pace and been updated to the level of versatility of the other classes.

Shaman have not really been the "top dog" since T6/Sunwell. Shaman have only really had one strong/above average tiers in the last 3 expansions (Dragon Soul). People quote ICC, but ICC really isn't a good example. Paladins, Disc Priests and Druids were all as good if not better than Shaman in ICC; it was just the tier when 4 of 5 healing specs pretty much had infinite mana and spammed one button, so everyone remembers that as when they were the most powerful. Since the start of Wrath, Shaman have had 1 good tier (Dragon Soul), 4 average tiers (T7, ToC, ICC, and T14), and 4 tiers where they were clearly the weakest healer (Ulduar, T11, Firelands, T15). During that time frame, Priests, Paladins and Druids have all had tiers where they were clearly the best healer. On top of that, Priests and Paladins have never experienced a tier in the last 3 expansions where they were as awful as Shaman were in T8/T11/T12/T15. It certainly does feel like Shaman have had far more than their fair share of downs and nowhere near their share of strong periods.

The best that we can hope for is a complete class redesign for the next expansion, similar to how much Paladins were redone going from Wrath to Cata.
90 Tauren Shaman
8045
Yeah, i wish my group had a mage, for BL. But i'm in a crap situation, can't reroll becuase we need lust, I am stuck just picking up whatever, the 2 healers and 2 tanks (a blood dk, and Prot pally) Don't pick up, so there isn't that much for me to do. So then I have to go dps which is lol... I hate dpsing. When i'm healing i am competitive with tanks, maybe, and I hate every moment while I am dpsing. Maybe if we put stuck in all our posts we will get some attention... like my group is stuck because i am stuck having to play a shaman and I'm stuck not capable of doing anymore HPS. But it's been over a week and 20 pages and not a single response from Blizzard's end. Just waiting to see "our internal testing shows that they are fine, so L2P..

Side Note: Not sure if this even Viable, but I have reforged out of all my spirit and stacked crit thinking that with enough crit mana from resurgence is > passive mana from spirit. Healing wave is mana positive (mana regen tool) and I spam flash heal. I have almost 30% crit fully raid buffed, so thats a little over 60% chance for flash heal to crit (thus proc resurgence), I have noticed that my mana gains from resurgence are comparable to a monk's mana tea.
Edited by Böda on 3/16/2013 10:00 AM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
12770
Side Note: Not sure if this even Viable, but I have reforged out of all my spirit and stacked crit thinking that with enough crit mana from resurgence is > passive mana from spirit. Healing wave is mana positive (mana regen tool) and I spam flash heal. I have almost 30% crit fully raid buffed, so thats a little over 60% chance for flash heal to crit (thus proc resurgence), I have noticed that my mana gains from resurgence are comparable to a monk's mana tea.


The only thing to keep in mind is that the amount of mana your Mana Tide Totem regenerates for everyone is tied to *your* Spirit. Less Spirit = less mana from Mana Tide.

Now, this isn't the be-all-end-all for all guilds, especially 10mans who 3-heal 2-healable content (... of which mine is one) but be aware that not all shamans will have the option to gear this way. There is some indication from the sources Tiberria and the others are using to generate the information in this thread that at the top raiding level, shamans are being required to go full-out Spirit in every way they can, because one of the basic reasons they are being brought to those race-for-world-first fights is so they can be mana-regen-bots.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105


Side Note: Not sure if this even Viable, but I have reforged out of all my spirit and stacked crit thinking that with enough crit mana from resurgence is > passive mana from spirit. Healing wave is mana positive (mana regen tool) and I spam flash heal. I have almost 30% crit fully raid buffed, so thats a little over 60% chance for flash heal to crit (thus proc resurgence), I have noticed that my mana gains from resurgence are comparable to a monk's mana tea.


Crit is only about 1/4 as good from a Regen perspective as Spirit. On top of that, the biggest problem with a low Spirit build is that it severely neuters the power of Mana Tide, not just for you, for the other healers in the raid as well. With Shaman output as awful as it is, your raid will definitely gain a lot more from stacking Spirit than any personal output gain that you can get from a low Spirit/high throughput build. You just have to adjust your playstyle around higher regen (casting more, using more HS/GHW/CH in place of HW, etc), and can attain comparable output anyway.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15865
A complete class design could be one of those instances of "be careful what you wish for," because I really don't want to end up with something stupid as holy power and having to juggle something else.

I like the synergy of how shaman spells work, they just need some love.
100 Pandaren Shaman
15220
Glyph of Riptide needs to be reworked. I only found it useful on ONE fight last tier and that was Sha of Fear, only because of the regen I'd get from collecting orbs. Pre-hotted people on the platform with me, dropped HR, ran around in ghost wolf. Other than that, it's a garbage glyph because of the mana cost on RT.

Chain Heal? Only even remotely useful with the glyph. That's a stretch though. The jump for it shouldn't be tied to the glyph. I find the CD on it from the glyph to be fine but the jump distance should be standard.

My biggest problem as a 10 man raider is healer mobility. Spiritwalkers Grace is great but I shouldn't be hesitant to use it at one point in fear of needing it later knowing I WILL need it because it's my only reliable solution to the problem. Maybe a glyph to lower the CD but reduce the time it lasts?

The amount of movement and damage going out at the same time is getting a tad ridiculous. I don't mind the challenge. I don't mind not being top of the HPS meters. The competition is great, but to the point that we're back to basically being buff bots is absurd. Wasn't part of the reason for reworking totems and giving other people the same buffs as us was to eliminate the "buff bot" ordeal? The sad part is, fights like Heroic Blade Lord, our utility hardly justifies our lack of mobile healing. At least with Spirit Kings, I was useful for interrupts, purges, and stuns. (I have a weird obsession for wanting to be top on interrupts... ^.^;)
90 Troll Shaman
17270
Glyph of Riptide needs to be reworked. I only found it useful on ONE fight last tier and that was Sha of Fear, only because of the regen I'd get from collecting orbs. Pre-hotted people on the platform with me, dropped HR, ran around in ghost wolf. Other than that, it's a garbage glyph because of the mana cost on RT.

Riptides mana cost isn't the issue. The fact that it does half as much healing as rejuv when glyphed to serve the same purpose at the same mana cost, that's that issue.
90 Goblin Shaman
10345
My point is this is nothing new, FL anyone, so if your expecting anything to change well thats what we would call insanity isnt it?


except that even in FL you didn't feel this way until a select few heroics pre-nerf (very few people even got to this point). Fights like Baleroc when you brought minimal healers and of course heroic Rag. It wasn't though, every other fight that you are completely out of your element, and for the most part.... the raid damage was minimal when spread and there was a lot of single-target damage. I didn't feel bad about using single target heals to heal single-target damage. This is completely the opposite, with moderately high amounts of spread out raid damage.

What is it about Shaman healing that makes it sub par so much of the time and what is it about Pally healing that makes it near top dog most of the time? I'm starting to believe the tin foil hat types.


its a variety of things, one of the biggest is eternal flame and the way it works. The second is a mastery that is useful in every situation imaginable, that has almost no downside and requires 0 management. The third is that they are no longer tied to severe positional requirements, and at least have CHOICES for heals on the move. On a more selfish level, they dont provide a major raid throughput/health CD so they can generally maximize their personals for their own max gain and aren't required to sit on 3m CDs for when they are best for the raid.

On the reverse, our healing is completely tied to healing rain, a ground effect that doesn't move. ELW was nerfed into the ground in MoP, while healing rain was significantly buffed... making our heals disproportionately centered around people standing in blue. Chain heal is weaker now as well. So our tools for handling a raid that is spreading (even when players are within chain heal jumps) are lackluster now. Even with that, chain heal is an extremely slow cast that is difficult to use if you are making subtle movement to dodge mechanics. On top of all of that... paladins still have better single target heals, as AA is not as effective as beacon, so even if it came down to tank healing... their mastery is arguably better for handling burst damage and beacon heals 2 tanks for the price of one.

There is some indication from the sources Tiberria and the others are using to generate the information in this thread that at the top raiding level, shamans are being required to go full-out Spirit in every way they can, because one of the basic reasons they are being brought to those race-for-world-first fights is so they can be mana-regen-bots.


sadly, shamans "niche" right now is HTT, MTT and 10% extra health to the tanks. We also occasionally get asked to use other totems (tremor, earthbind/grab, windwalk, capacitor), and bring an extra stormlash + fire ele damage. So fights where you cant afford to drop a healer, a token shaman gets brought for some combination of alll of the above... fights that you need to drop healers for any reason, we are almost always the first out the door.
90 Pandaren Shaman
9355
There really is no acceptable alternative than to provide a significant across the board output increase. We need at least 20% additional output in both raid sizes to be viable this tier.


This might be a terrible idea; I've not raided on my shaman, and I've raided very little on other classes. What if we received some raid-wide damage reduction CDs? I am thinking along the same lines as the value of absorbs: damage not taken is more valuable than damage healed. Maybe an earth totem CD could create a protective shield all Gaara style and an air totem CD could have a magical damage reduction effect, similar to the warrior and pally tank mitigation.

I don't tend to say, "Wouldn't it be cool if..." much. I'm just thinking if the damage reduction was flexible enough to prevent enough damage that our cohealer(s) could top off the raid, that would increase our utility with handling wide spread raid damage. Granted, we'd have to be balanced even more around miniCDs than we are already. Just a thought!
Edited by Ffraid on 3/16/2013 12:32 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
6560
I don't mind that idea. Would need to be a 20% reduction though like a Devotion Aura or something. It can't be OP in PVP.
100 Troll Shaman
12095
Greetings,

As I am a European player, I kindly asked if somebody on mmo-champion can post this on the US forums. I am a resto shaman since Vanilla, and shaman since patch 0.7, and currently still a resto shaman during ToT. My progress may be a bit lacking (6/12 Normal ToT), but I usually stick myself to numbers and I can tell right now that the numbers are shocking enough.

Just keeping myself to ToT here, I can see that we are way below the rest of the other healers, as has been stated by other people in this topic. I too experienced a lot of difficulty in being on par. I have never really bothered about topping the meters, but being at least in the same range as other healers is something I much prefer, to the point where nobody else dies.

The amount of spread fights in ToT is quite high, but worse is that even on stack fights like jin'rokh and magaera, we are still low. We can use Healing Rain there, but it just does not even let us be in the same range HPS wise. That seems more like our healing output is just too low.

And that really needs a change. It is not that we can't use Healing Rain, it's just that our whole arsenal of healing output is too low. Furthermore, spread fights is okay, but we can't use Chain Heal either. The glyph is nice, it then does reach, but the cooldown makes us limited in our options, something other healers do not have. You introduced the cooldown, because you feared it will make Chain Heal too powerful, but it is now one of the least used spells, especially in 10-man, due to it's bad range.

A buff in general of our healing output is really required. I made gear sets for 10 and 25-man respectively and even by the looks of it, only the 4 piece will be good for 10-man. But to get that, we need to do decent healing to keep our raid alive and not being benched as we are so limited.

It's stat priority is also no longer versatile, as you wanted us to believe by removing our mp5. You wanted us to choose what stats we go for, but it's still required that we stack an insane amount of spirit. If you want us to have versatile stats, then you didn't implement such a huge need for spirit.

Now I know that in PvP, we are quite strong. We are second to best healer there, people say. It is true that we are good there, because we have the gear there for it. Shamans have always scaled better then any other class with gear and with the amount of RBG boosting going on, everybody could get Tier 2 items, making shamans more powerful then classes that do not. In PvP, however, healing output is not everything.

Buff the healing output. It's a plea from the resto shaman community and from me personally aswell. The EU community is also calling out that we need one. We get benched and swapped so much that it is not even fun anymore. I was close to not even passing a trial in my guild, simply because I was low on the healing meters. And I tried everything to improve myself, stat priority difference, glyph difference, but I can not even get close to it. We have needed a buff ever since T11, with T12 being the cherry on top.

Set bonuses will not fix this, especially not for 25-man. A buff in our healing output is so drastically needed and quickly.

Thank you for listening to an old man on the Europe side of life.

With kind regards,

~Disq
Darksorrow-EU
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