Resto Shaman - Severely Lacking in T15

Out of curiosity, what class is actually good at healing consistent spread raid damage? I was under the impression Paladins needed to stack to perform well at this.

Druids are the 'prime' healer for spread damage and high movement encounters, followed closely by monks afaik. Holy Priests and Disc are equally as solid for spread damage, although Disc can't use Barrier as easily in such situations. Paladins are weaker than them, but still ahead of us because of the number of instant spells they got and how EF synergizes very well with their Mastery right now.



I'm looking at my (unglyphed) Riptide tooltip in-game as I type this; word-for-word, it reads:

"Heals a friendly target for 17,538 and another 57,953 over 18.94 sec. Your Chain Heal spells are 25% more effective when their primary target is affected by your Riptide."


Obviously if you tested it you wouldn't get 25% more effective chain heal because i already stated what i got so not sure what the point is your trying to make.

Just tested mine and I got 25577 CH heal normal, and 31932 with Riptide, which is 24.84% stronger. The point Ellarix seems to be trying to make is that there is no reason as to why believe the RT tooltip implies your CH becomes a faster cast, as that is not an actual increase in efficiency.
100 Undead Priest
10715
03/16/2013 04:32 PMPosted by Dezie
Out of curiosity, what class is actually good at healing consistent spread raid damage? I was under the impression Paladins needed to stack to perform well at this.


Nope, paladins are generally the best healers stacked and spread for what it's worth. Paladin healers are the staple healers of all healing comps.


What makes Paladins good while spread?

EDIT - And to the poster above me, Disc is terrible at healing spread raid damage.
Edited by Multicidez on 3/16/2013 5:01 PM PDT
EDIT - And to the poster above me, Disc is terrible at healing spread raid damage.

PoH, PoM, PW:Shield, Cascade and Attonement are effective at healing spread raid damage. Other than losing PW:Barrier effectiveness, they lose very little when the raid is spread out. By 'spread damage' we mean instances where the raid members can't stand withing some 6-8 yds of each other due to boss mechanics; Disc has little issue covering most of those cases.
90 Tauren Priest
0
EDIT - And to the poster above me, Disc is terrible at healing spread raid damage.


huh?

Unless your groups are set up in a really stupid way, Disc has great spread healing. Even if PoH isn't ideal, you can get pretty far with PW:S/PoM/Cascade for spread.

Edit: durn you korghal for beating me to it D:
Edited by Qùess on 3/16/2013 5:09 PM PDT
100 Undead Priest
10715
PoM is good, as is Healing Stream. Cascade is effective, albeit expensive and still weaker than Shaman cooldowns.

The point being: Disc and Shaman are in the same boat during that situation as far as mechanics go. That's all.

Ultimately Shaman output still needs to be improved, particularly in a way that will benefit 10mans moreso than 25mans, but Blizz seems to really not be in a mood to promote anything 10man right now.
03/16/2013 07:05 PMPosted by Multicidez
PoM is good, as is Healing Stream.

PoM has a shorter CD than HST, and DI is available to make it more worth (specially with this tier's bonus).

Cascade is effective, albeit expensive and still weaker than Shaman cooldowns.

You really can't compare an ability that is in less than a 30 second cooldown to two 3 min CDs.

The point being: Disc and Shaman are in the same boat during that situation as far as mechanics go. That's all.

But they really aren't, unless your output literally plummets like a rock the moment the raid spreads around and moves around. If that happened then Disc would not be one of the top healers this tier even after nerfs.
Edited by Korghal on 3/16/2013 7:52 PM PDT
100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17885
PoM is good, as is Healing Stream. Cascade is effective, albeit expensive and still weaker than Shaman cooldowns.

The point being: Disc and Shaman are in the same boat during that situation as far as mechanics go. That's all.

Ultimately Shaman output still needs to be improved, particularly in a way that will benefit 10mans moreso than 25mans, but Blizz seems to really not be in a mood to promote anything 10man right now.


Considering 25m shamans are mere mana batteries and nothing else, both sizes need help equally.
Edited by Sensations on 3/16/2013 7:53 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
14705
03/16/2013 04:58 PMPosted by Multicidez
What makes Paladins good while spread?


Depending on the fight, many paladins will blanket the raid with 1 HP Eternal Flames, which will add a consistent ticking HoT and a small absorb. They also have Light of Dawn. Holy Prism will work as well as long as everyone is spread out relatively close to the boss.
100 Undead Priest
10715

But they really aren't, unless your output literally plummets like a rock the moment the raid spreads around and moves around. If that happened then Disc would not be one of the top healers this tier even after nerfs.


Disc can do OK because its numbers aren't gutted. You are confusing raw output with mechanics. Mechanically, all classes struggle in one way or another when people start to spread out.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
PoM is good, as is Healing Stream. Cascade is effective, albeit expensive and still weaker than Shaman cooldowns.

The point being: Disc and Shaman are in the same boat during that situation as far as mechanics go. That's all.

Ultimately Shaman output still needs to be improved, particularly in a way that will benefit 10mans moreso than 25mans, but Blizz seems to really not be in a mood to promote anything 10man right now.


Completely wrong - on all accounts.

PoM is a larger portion of priest output than HST is of Shaman output in most cases. Most of the time, HST is around 15% and PoM is around 20% from logs that I have seen. When you factor in that Disc Priest output is about 30% higher than Shaman output, PoM is about 26% stronger. On top of that, you can't really compare something with a 10 second CD to something with a 30 second CD. You absolutely have to cast HST on CD (or your output tanks), so you can't afford to keep it for movement.

The rest of your argument completely falls apart. You can not seriously say that the option to use PW:S (mana intensive but effective) while moving makes you in anything resembling the same position as Resto Shaman in terms of spread healing. That is ridiculous. Sure, we have Riptide every 6 seconds while moving, but you have glyphed Penance, which is a lot more upfront healing. On top of that, when not moving, PoH has a very large 30 yard range that normally can reach entire groups if they are intelligently setup and positioned. PoH/PWS are very strong spread AoE healing. You don't have 40%+ of your output tied to a 10 yard radius AoE healing circle and a 12.5 yard jump Chain Heal.

You are also 100% wrong about 10 man vs 25 man Resto Shaman. Both need massive buffs. 25 man is an average of 34% behind and 10 man is an average of 38% behind if you average out all 12 fights. Shaman output is seriously broken in all raid formats - it categorically is not a 10 man only issue.
90 Pandaren Monk
8880
Look at Blood Legion's Resto Shaman. 18,250 spirit. You know damn well she's a glorified mana battery. Most likely just brings Resto-CDs and spam heals GHW on the tank and HR 100% on melee.


This more then anything makes me sad for my Shaman friends. Mana battery indeed. It's not like this is a new issue for the class. Really makes me wonder if the chain heal developer hate is indeed a result of the graphic. Wouldn't think buffing chain would have any effect on pvp. In support let me add, " * "
100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
PoM is good, as is Healing Stream. Cascade is effective, albeit expensive and still weaker than Shaman cooldowns.

The point being: Disc and Shaman are in the same boat during that situation as far as mechanics go. That's all.

Ultimately Shaman output still needs to be improved, particularly in a way that will benefit 10mans moreso than 25mans, but Blizz seems to really not be in a mood to promote anything 10man right now.

...what???

Outside of issues with Barrier, Disc is arguably the second-least spread-sensitive healer in the game (first place goes to Holy). Cascade works better on a spread raid. Atonement will work on literally anyone who's in range to DPS the boss. PWS has no range requirement and can be cast while moving. Penance has no range requirement and can be cast while moving. And PoH has a quite forgiving range requirement that can be almost entirely alleviated on most fights (excluding things like Sha where the game splits the raid unpredictably).

That pretty much covers all of Disc's healing. The only reason Disc would ever care if people are stacked in a 10-yard circle is for Barrier, and possibly for a moderate gain in PoM. (Shamans have the same deal with SLT as Disc does with Barrier, but that's on top of all their other issues.)

As for mobility, every healer other than druids or monks has some issues if they have to move; Disc has a decent enough mobile healing arsenal. And part of the shaman issue is that they're not only broken when they have to move; they also lose out when other people have to move. Disc has no comparable problem.
Edited by Kaels on 3/16/2013 8:34 PM PDT
100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
03/16/2013 04:57 PMPosted by Korghal
Druids are the 'prime' healer for spread damage and high movement encounters, followed closely by monks afaik. Holy Priests and Disc are equally as solid for spread damage, although Disc can't use Barrier as easily in such situations. Paladins are weaker than them, but still ahead of us because of the number of instant spells they got and how EF synergizes very well with their Mastery right now.

Holy should be ranked ahead of druids at a minimum. Holy actually gains more from spreading than they lose; Cascade gains quite a lot, while PoM loses relatively little as long as some people are within 12 yards of each other. Other spells mostly aren't affected until the spread gets bad enough to break PoH (at which point Serenity Renew-rolling still works great).

Druids, on the other hand, gain nothing and lose most of the contribution of Efflo and shrooms.

Monks don't really care all that much - it's mostly just SCK that's hurt by spreading, and afaik they're not using that much - but at best I'd put them tied with Holy.

For mobility, druids are a bit better when they have to move, but lose when other people have to move. Holy loses a bit when we have to move, but doesn't care what other people do. On balance, I'd call it a draw. Monks might come out ahead, especially since the game will treat them as melee when they're in melee range.
Edited by Kaels on 3/16/2013 8:42 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
12985
I'm from a 25 man raiding group. I killed 3/12 normal mode and working on Tortos.

like meany have state movement fight are fun and we don't want a DS repeat just to help resto shammy. But we don't want a repeat of Fireland either. We need better tool to spread healing and it's urgent.

Number wise i'm not that bad in my group i have the chance to have no disc priest in my group, but i do have two holy pally. First week of ToT what makes me want to cry is to see those two holy priest cast cascade when needed and their holy glory PoM and all their arsenal and don't get nothing hard to work with. to have holy paly that heal as well the tank and the raid at the same time and have almost no limitation to their aoe healing.

We need a change to chain heal. we need a buff to our healing. We need a new spell or a all ready exsiting spell that we can use on a 30yard range at least. We asked for those thing befor Mop and got 3 min CD and bad glyph. we spoke about those meany time.

Plz do something it's starting to be really annoying all over again like it was on when Fireland was current contant.

even if a compare to other healer tool I, for myself and only my voice, for an homogenization of some sort on the tool kit of healer with just a little of spice here and there to make a little bit of difference. After all don't tank all have aoe threat ability and personal cd. Or the dps don't they all have aoe and sigle target ability too? it's long shot argument but it's said lol
90 Draenei Shaman
12770
I'm looking at my (unglyphed) Riptide tooltip in-game as I type this; word-for-word, it reads:

"Heals a friendly target for 17,538 and another 57,953 over 18.94 sec. Your Chain Heal spells are 25% more effective when their primary target is affected by your Riptide."


Obviously if you tested it you wouldn't get 25% more effective chain heal because i already stated what i got so not sure what the point is your trying to make.


"Chain Heal: Chain heal is a smart AoE heal that jumps to any character up to four times, as long as they are 12 yards or less apart and at less than 100% health. Chain Heal can serve as a filler spell for AoE damage after casting healing rain. It prioritizes targets by absolute health values, not percentages, making mastery a good stat for optimization of this spell. As of 5.01 note that targeting a player with the Riptide hot active, will effectively buff all resulting jumps of chain heal by 25%. While getting all four jumps is advisable, the fourth jump's heal value is so diminished that its fairly negligible HPS. It is a good general rule to only cast this spell if you stand a fair chance at getting the third jump out of it, since its weaker than direct heals if it jumps less. Along with riptide it will proc tidal waves on cast. The Glyph of Chaining will increase the jump distance by 100% for 4sec CD trade-off and will be discussed further in the glyph section."

^ from the resto shaman guide at http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-resto_its_raining_heals_5_2_a/

and

"Chain Heal – a long-cast, smart heal, Chain Heal will provide a moderate healing amount to a maximum of 4 targets. Although Chain Heal will start its jumps at the target of your choosing, subsequent jumps will be to the most injured player within 12.5 yards of the previous target. If no targets are within a 12.5 yard radius or targets within that radius are already at 100% HP, Chain Heal will not jump. Each jump of Chain Heal will reduce the effectiveness of the heal by 30%, although its throughput can be increased by 25% by casting CH on a target who has a Riptide hot on them. Do note that aside from Riptide, Chain Heal is the only other way to trigger the Tidal Waves effect. Chain Heal can be glyphed (through Glyph of Chaining) to increase its jump distance to 25yards, in exchange for the addition of a 4 second CD."

^ from the resto shaman guide at http://lifeingroup5.com/?page_id=3079 .

As for testing, if you'd like to do so, please be my guest. Testing is done naked, so that your weapon enchants/trinkets/Tier set bonuses don't influence the results. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong about believing that elitistjerks and Life In Group 5 are correct, if your proper testing shows that they are indeed in error; the nature of printed matter, in any form, is that it can become outdated, even when referring to what are generally held up to be the most reliable of sources.

edited to highlight the specific statements in question, because I felt that copy-pasting the entirety of each source's blurb on the Chain Heal ability might be useful or at least help ward against any who might have thought I could have missed reading information relevent to the opposite argument.
Edited by Ellarix on 3/16/2013 10:08 PM PDT
100 Undead Priest
10715

Completely wrong - on all accounts.

PoM is a larger portion of priest output than HST is of Shaman output in most cases. Most of the time, HST is around 15% and PoM is around 20% from logs that I have seen. When you factor in that Disc Priest output is about 30% higher than Shaman output, PoM is about 26% stronger. On top of that, you can't really compare something with a 10 second CD to something with a 30 second CD. You absolutely have to cast HST on CD (or your output tanks), so you can't afford to keep it for movement.

The rest of your argument completely falls apart. You can not seriously say that the option to use PW:S (mana intensive but effective) while moving makes you in anything resembling the same position as Resto Shaman in terms of spread healing. That is ridiculous. Sure, we have Riptide every 6 seconds while moving, but you have glyphed Penance, which is a lot more upfront healing. On top of that, when not moving, PoH has a very large 30 yard range that normally can reach entire groups if they are intelligently setup and positioned. PoH/PWS are very strong spread AoE healing. You don't have 40%+ of your output tied to a 10 yard radius AoE healing circle and a 12.5 yard jump Chain Heal.

You are also 100% wrong about 10 man vs 25 man Resto Shaman. Both need massive buffs. 25 man is an average of 34% behind and 10 man is an average of 38% behind if you average out all 12 fights. Shaman output is seriously broken in all raid formats - it categorically is not a 10 man only issue.


I already said Shaman need more output. Giving Shaman more output inherently solves much of your stated problems here.

Furthermore, I'm not going to get into a "no you" contest. You claim PoM is 20% of a Priest's healing from what you've seen? Show me one log of any half decent Priest attempting progression where this is true. Until then, I'm not going to waste my time with dumb BS.

The only point was when people are spread out that *every* healer suffers and not just Shaman.
100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
The only point was when people are spread out that *every* healer suffers and not just Shaman.

This is simply not true.

Holy doesn't mind spreading at all, and might actually improve (up to a point).

Disc barely cares.

Monks barely care.

Druids care somewhat, but it's not a big thing.

Paladins care quite a bit, but are still fairly functional.

Shamans are completely crippled.
90 Tauren Shaman
8570
Your batteries are charged... with RAGE!
Edited by Böda on 3/16/2013 10:23 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
7640
This is simply not true.


Shamans are completely crippled.
90 Goblin Shaman
10345
first off, im glad that we are post capping this. Hopefully somebody will notice. I plan to open a ticket about this myself as there are a lot of good ideas in this thread.

I think the easiest place to change Rsham without just giving us a "purification" buff (which may be needed to some degree as well) is with chain heal... I've said it all along and there are a lot of REALLY EASY fixes.

1) glyph of chaining baseline.
2) Bake in the 25% buff from RT and instead make TW effect chain heal instead of creating TW.
3) Increase the throughput on later chain jumps, or just completely take out the diminishing effect entirely, making it very inefficient to use on sub 3-4 targets.

Additionally things that would greatly help our spread out healing/healing on the move:
1) fix ascendance range, its silly that this spell is 20 yd radius, like really?
2) Improve the RT glyph so we don't give up 40% throughput to use this spell with no cd.
3) Improve SWG or AS. Easy option would be to have the glyph reduce CD instead of increase duration.... rarely do you need LONGER SWG but instead more often.
4) Improve ELW in a variety of ways (more hps, absorbs, better procs, etc).

Pretty much any of the above would greatly improve our toolkit, all are number tweaks on either existing glyphs or abilities, so I know you (Blizzard) have the technology to do this. For the most part, these are affecting abilities that will have minimal impact on PvP.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]