Resto Shaman - Severely Lacking in T15

90 Draenei Shaman
17105
What I would do for a temporary band-aid fix to keep Resto competitive in PvE this tier (without making PvP overpowered).

1. Nerf Deep Healing Mastery by 50%
2. Increase Purification (Resto spec passive) from +25% to healing, +50% to Water Totems to +45% to healing and +70% to Water Totems
3. Increase the healing done by Chain Heal by 50% (across all jumps)
4. Remove the "adds a 4 second CD" component from Glyph of Chaining

I suspect that PvE resto on average gets at most 10% overall increased output from Mastery, so cutting it by 50% would be a 5% throughput nerf. PvP Resto probably gets closer to 25-30% increased healing from it, so would get about a 15% nerf. By increasing the passive by 20%, you would be buffing PvE Resto by 15% and compensating PvP Resto by making the change a near wash. The increase to Chain Heal would hopefully work out to an overall buff of about 20% to PvE Resto, which is about what it currently needs.

They would then need to look towards reworking the Deep Healing mastery for the next raid tier so that mastery wouldn't remain a totally dead stat beyond this tier.
90 Troll Shaman
17270
I think... buffing Purification more... might be dangerous. You just double dip buffed HST and HTT.

My list would be:
Chain Heal
-Make glyph of chaining distance baseline.
-Reduce bounce loss to 20%.
-Allow CH crits to proc AA
-Reduce Riptide bonus to 10-15%, buff spell by 10%.
-Allow it to consume TW's.

Riptide
-Increased by 25%
-Reduce CD to 5 sec.
-Glyph of Riptide - No CD by after casting Riptide the Riptide initial heal is reduced by 90% for 5 seconds.
-3 Charges of TW's.

HST
-Cost Reduced by 50% (to deter Totemic Recall antics)
-Given a Charge system (like Conflag) for resto, up to 3 charges. 1 Charge every 30 seconds. Charge time is improved by static haste.

MTT
-Changed to %Mana
-Group benefit is cut in half.
Edited by Pitkanen on 3/10/2013 12:29 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
We need something that can increase our capability to heal effectively when a raid group is spread.
A thought that I had would be adding more totems that are relevant to resto that aren't water totems. Why not make stone bulwark raid-wide? Or have a damage reduction wind totem? Or maybe a cauterizing fire totem? I dunno.
90 Pandaren Monk
13165
-I think pointing to HR and CH are "safe" things to complain about (negligible PvP effects), as well as fight mechanics/general HPS vs the Resto kit, but the comparisons to other specific class abilities likely aren't gonna get you anywhere, so I just wouldn't bother. It will be hard enough to get the "safe" things addressed in a timely fashion.


Don't forget absorbs. They still need to tweak them down a little. On my priest last night, my guild's ten man raid decided to go attempt the first boss in ToT (just to see the mechanics really- we're still stuck on tier 14 stuff <long story short, we started way late last tier>).

My point is absorbs mess with numbers. Disc (obviously) and pallies both have this mechanic. When it came to the burst damage though, his numbers did pick up (disc only has a few AOE's don't forget <and one of those you have to spec into; the other requires you to be damaging the boss>). But I have also always thought that resto shaman need another form of an AoE, spread type heal. HTT helps- but it's on that 3 minute cooldown. We would need something that isn't on some idiotically long cool down that can also be used while moving.

In my opinion, you have to look at the combined healing among all the healers- not just your own personal numbers.


This is a valid point, but kind of what I was inferring to when I mentioned Shaman make other raid members better. If things like SLT and MTT allow for more liberal use of absorbs (and they do) then that is going to impact Shaman of course.

And I do look at combined healing, that's where the discrepancies are really coming into play. If Shaman kits played nicer with other healers instead of the "butler" situation that's currently going on that'd be great in theory, but I truly worry about the end result. For example, things like MTT probably shouldn't benefit the raid as much as the Shaman casting it, but then you run into the danger that what's left after won't justify a raid spot anymore (like the MTT nerf in Tier 11 having a noticeable effect on Tier 12, although there was more to it of course) We just can't assume Blizzard is going to fill in those gaps in a timely fashion, which is why some people might very well be content that they are at least being invited and know it could be worse. It's possible a change regarding CDs would make Shaman better overall, but it is not a given.

I was more dissuading against "X has this specific mechanic Y, we need it too". You *might* be able to argue for specific class mechanics simply not functioning well with the Shaman kit and have a valid point, but I don't see them nerfing a class for Shaman's sake alone, I just see them buffing something in the Shaman kit instead, or nerfing it if it affects everyone like 5.1 Disc. That it seems to be having such a greater effect on Shaman than anyone else makes me think they should go the buff route. Shaman Mastery in particular does not play nice with an absorb-centric environment, and there's no way to say reducing them won't benefit other classes (like Druid and Monk) far more, or cripple the nerfed class too much (even if it's PvP related) which might lead to other issues with those class kits vs ours in turn.

We need something that can increase our capability to heal effectively when a raid group is spread.
A thought that I had would be adding more totems that are relevant to resto that aren't water totems. Why not make stone bulwark raid-wide? Or have a damage reduction wind totem? Or maybe a cauterizing fire totem? I dunno.


I won't say never, since Shaman did get SLT mid expansion, and I love this idea really, but the major reason I have always been campaigning for buffing CH is because it's already there. If they can't be bothered to even tweak that (and the other tools we already have), then that greatly lessens my hope for completely brand new things, which would require far more effort to implement, and then may not even really matter for the core problems (SLT in Tier 12).
Edited by Thaimaishu on 3/10/2013 1:45 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
14505
Shaman have always been support healers; it's a rare tier where we're topping the meters consistently. That was true in BC and it's true today.

My raid usually runs two resto shaman (out of six healers). We can do some amazing straight-up healing on a stacked raid but our main job is cooldowns and our only CD that's affected by a spread raid in Spirit Link (Ascendance is still good, just have to chain to something other than Healing Rain). Trust me, those other four healers notice when we're only running one MTT, it's that good. Even so HR doesn't seem to be super duper nerfed, I just have to watch where the melee is going and be smarter about where I drop it.

That said I think our T15 bonuses are going to help a lot with spread healing, and our glyphs could definately use some tweaking.

Glyphed Riptide is far too weak to be of any use whatsoever. If it simply added the up-front portion of the heal to the HoT component (instead of removing it) it would be very useful on spread / movement fights. Chaining needs to have some secondary effect (maybe a shield) to justify it's CD and piss-poor throughput compared to what it once was (even spread, HR is still the better choice nine times out of ten). Healing Wave should put the extra healing on the lowest-health target instead of just myself, etc.

I would also love to see Cleansing Totem come back, maybe something that just pulses once or twice and has a longish (3min) CD, but now I'm delving into wishful thinking.
Edited by Kessiaan on 3/10/2013 2:07 PM PDT
90 Troll Shaman
13250
03/10/2013 08:44 AMPosted by Tiberria
The notion that we should shut up and accept this is ridiculous.


Not saying anyone should shut up. Just pointing out history over the past several years. It's nice to see this type of thread with many good ideas. It just seems shaman concerns have fallen on deaf ears for a long time now.
90 Goblin Shaman
8435
03/10/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Janthara
The other thing I just don't understand is how this got past PTR, how of all the people monitoring what was going on in PTR did no one even come close to seeing this happen when they were designing the raid instance?


That's easy- most of the people that go there aren't actually there to test anything. They go in there to play with the new content, don't bother reporting these things, and then we have stuff like this go through on live.

I sometimes wonder why we even have a PTR at times.
____________________________________________________________

on another note, anyone else want to see something useful done to Stone Bulwark Totem ( like a raid wide shield) and grounding totem (like a raid wide sucks up a spell)? Maybe in the form of a glyph? SBT should have been shaman baseline- not a talent in my opinion.

I mean I know it's not a great absorb at the moment, but if they made it baseline, upped the absorb on it, and maybe threw in a glyph that made it raid/party wide- that would help a little bit.

Now honestly, my favorite set up on my preist this expac so far has been disc/resto sham/resto druid. But I'll admit, that I prefer the resto shaman for the cool downs they have (and not because of MTT)- especially on bursty damage type fights. I can only prevent so much damage ;).

03/10/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
I was more dissuading against "X has this specific mechanic Y, we need it too". You *might* be able to argue for specific class mechanics simply not functioning well with the Shaman kit and have a valid point, but I don't see them nerfing a class for Shaman's sake alone,


They just nerfed the heck out of POH spam mainly because the buffs they had given disc priests were entirely too much. I'm happy about this, gives other healers a chance to actually heal for a change. Personally, I still don't think they nerfed it enough.

In my opinion, the reactive healers should be healing for a heck of a lot more then a proactive. A proactive healer should only be there to mitigate some of the damage, but at the same time, the reactive healer (and discs reactive healing) should be there to heal up what damage the absorbs aren't absorbing.

With the POH spam what was happening is discs were "double dipping" with divine aegis and SS. I was once in a group with 3 discs and 2 holy pallies and there was literally 0 damage being taken due to the amount of absorbs. Even back in DS when absorbs were pretty strong, they never completely blocked out all damage. That should never happen quite honestly.

So glad they brought disc back to normal.
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/10/2013 4:49 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
5735
I'm really afraid of the next tuesday when heroics come, theres no way to compare shamy heals with other classses, specially in this tier with so many spread fights and our poor mechanics...

Priests Attonement: Need's to do nothing, dps rotation on boss and top the metters with smart heals..

Paladins: High holy power generation + DP = Eternal Flames everyone.

Druids: Reju + Wild Grouth... easy to heal moderate spread damage..

Monks??????? retarded as druids.

Shamys, No tooltip for this kind of damage.

Next post i'll be bringing some logs to prove the numbers in those situations.
90 Draenei Shaman
15795
I'm really afraid of the next tuesday when heroics come, theres no way to compare shamy heals with other classses, specially in this tier with so many spread fights and our poor mechanics...

Priests Attonement: Need's to do nothing, dps rotation on boss and top the metters with smart heals..

Paladins: High holy power generation + DP = Eternal Flames everyone.

Druids: Reju + Wild Grouth... easy to heal moderate spread damage..

Monks??????? retarded as druids.

Shamys, No tooltip for this kind of damage.

Next post i'll be bringing some logs to prove the numbers in those situations.


^^^^

right now its all about smart heals and bubbles...you dont have ..your class sucks
Edited by Selendis on 3/10/2013 4:58 PM PDT
90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
It was said this would happen, I made numerous threads on beta as well as other Shaman. But we get a tier that's catered to us and no1 complains until our problems are shown again because of precious HPS meters. It's these kind of situations that annoy me, the shaman community only has itself to blame for just deciding now to come out because oh no what the smart people knew would happen, happened.

Good shaman will be fine, bad shaman will stay bad it's not a huge deal anymore just play your best.
Edited by Sensations on 3/10/2013 4:59 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
It was said this would happen, I made numerous threads on beta as well as other Shaman. But we get a tier that's catered to us and no1 complains until our problems are shown again because of precious HPS meters. It's these kind of situations that annoy me, the shaman community only has itself to blame for just deciding now to come out because oh no what the smart people knew would happen, happened.

Good shaman will be fine, bad shaman will stay bad it's not a huge deal anymore just play your best.


That was going to happen anyway. It isn't like our HPS was at all good last tier either; we were 5th of 6 specs in 25H and 6th of 6 specs in 10H. It was just competitive enough that the unique utility made it acceptable. However, it's difficult to make a case that Shaman need new tools and a mechanical redesign without numbers and logs to support it. We didn't have that in T13 and T14, and this is the first time we are getting an extensive source of logs for T15 showing just how bad the damage is.
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Why does Raidbots use the median as the default measure? Outliers?
90 Draenei Shaman
10715
Our class is so broken right now it needs to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch. There are tons of ideas in this thread and others on how to fix shaman and yet I have little faith anything will be done by blizzard.

When disc priests were below the pack at the beginning of the expansion, they rushed in with a ludicrous 100% increase to DA and made disc stupidly OP. They then spent lots of time for 5.2 remaking and rebalancing the spells but still clearly keeping them near the top when it comes to healing throughput.

Where is the attention to resto shaman? Something needs to be done and yet the 5.2 class blog fails to even mention significant resto adjustments. None of the changes did anything to improve the state of our spec.
Edited by Stillwinds on 3/10/2013 10:53 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
10715
The sad part is we probably will get some buff in the next week or so. But it will be something pathetic like a 5% increase to the periodic heal of riptide like we got in DS. Or even worse a buff to healing rain. Whatever it is, I am sure we will still be safely at the bottom of the charts.

I tend to like the idea of removing healing rain and buffing our other heals.
Edited by Stillwinds on 3/10/2013 10:53 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The sad part is we probably will get some buff in the next week or so. But it will be something pathetic like a 5% increase to the periodic heal of riptide like we got in DS. Or even worse a buff to healing rain. Whatever it is, I am sure we will still be safely at the bottom of the charts.

I tend to like the idea of removing healing rain and buffing our other heals.


The reality is, real mechanics based changes probably need to wait for the next patch if not the next expansion. However, they can and should put through band-aid throughput buffs to keep us viable until then. They had no problem doing this for Disc Priests in 5.0/5.1, and Disc Priests were in nowhere near as awful of a position then as Shaman are in 5.2 (especially once they got geared).
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Why does Raidbots use the median as the default measure? Outliers?


Would assume to level the skill playing field.
90 Draenei Shaman
8960
I just went through a week of raiding, have logs for it all and will be looking over them in depth, but just my first impressions on how it went, it felt awful healing on my shaman, there are no spells that I have that are a good answer to any of the kind of damage and healing required in these new encounters, my top heals were repeatedly HST and HTT, which I think is wrong since they are both spells I cannot control, any heals I did cast like trying to aim healing rain at melee groups (which is extremely difficult), some random CH, which I quickly stopped doing anyway, and random single target heals, there was nothing that I had that felt fluid or up to par with what was going on in the encounter. I've only done the first 3 bosses, but it just felt awful. Every one of my normal bread and butter spells felt clunky, slow, not anywhere near fast enough to heal people up before an atonement heal or light of dawn heal, prayer of mending, or cascade made it to whoever I was targeting first, I feel like all I am trying to do is snipe heal which I absolutely hate, because that is no way a healer should be played.
Edited by Janthara on 3/11/2013 11:30 AM PDT
90 Tauren Shaman
8570
Having only realy gotten a small taste of the healing this tier my opinion is somewhat based on incomplete data sets from my own experience. However, having said that that doesn't make me blind to the problems. Our numbers aren't really the issue, it's how we produce our numbers. Spread out mechanics kill my hps with little to no way of boosting them or putting out more healing. Single target heals only get you so far, so I have started to use glyph of chaining regularly, but even then once every 4 seconds can i begin to cast it, and with a 2 second cast its once every 6 seconds and that being generous, casting it once every 6 seconds.

The fact of the matter is, is that we need a change to our mechanics, and how is see it we need it in five places.
1) Tidal Waves, we need an AoE tidal wave spender, furthermore it can't interfere/make our stacked healing any stronger. I present that chain heal consume Tidal Waves: increasing it's jump distance by 100%. Give us a choice with what we do with Tidal Waves, peel back the magnifying glass, and make the choice not; Healing wave, Healing Surge, or Greater Heal (only single target heals), and make the choice between Single Target and AoE. If the damage calls for chain heal spam what is so wrong about using it, it was buffed for a reason right (5.0?-5.1?, around then)?
2) Replacment Tidal Wave Generator: To replace Chain Heal; which had previously generated Tidal Waves, instead use Healing Rain. It's on a Cd so it in a way gives some base line rate at which we generate Tidal Waves (before the unpredictability of being able to generate tidal waves stacks from a heal that may or may not be totally effective, that had no cooldown versus a spell that I KNOW when I cast it people are going to use it, and has a Cd giving a maximum of 8 tidal wave charges per minute assuming it is cast with unleash roughly every 15 seconds). It's a more solid and concrete foundation. Also this would be a technical increas to flexibility; if you think about it.
3) Give Chain heal the Chain lightning treatment: Simply remove it's attenuation
4) Remove chain heals interaction with riptide: Remove the buff all together, if chain heal no longer attenuates this buff is over kill. Essentially a 25% nerf to chain heal (the buff presented by riptide on a target) which i think is fair compensation for an archaic class mechanic.
5) This is more of a shaman Change in general, but is there a way that Elemental blast can't give Int/spirit/Agi and be spec specific? Even if its damage had to be nerfed the subsequent primary stat buff would be great. Thematically it just makes more sense, and in a way gives shaman the option of running low spirit, high throughput with a power word: Solace-esq way to regen mana. Has a cast time, has a cooldown, doesn't heal, why no spirit? If anything I would like to see this- tier where super low spirit and high secondary stats for quick and powerful tank/spot healing are the way to go. A castable Damage ability on a cooldown with a spirit proc would fit perfect, it makes the last talent more viable for all the specs and just overall makes some of these class mechanic issues less apparent with a way "in spec" to work around an obvious lacking.
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Would assume to level the skill playing field.


Yeah. Just feels weird to make it the default--it essentially is just showing you how the 50th best Shaman/Paladin/etc ranks.
90 Troll Shaman
13125
Resto shamans need some love bliz, don't leave us hanging like in firelands! I don't want to dps again ;____;
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