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The fact of the matter is that no healer performs as poorly out of their "niche" as we do. Healing rain is such a significant heal for us that when we're given a raiding situation where we can't use it effectively then we instantly become one of the least ideal healing classes to bring.

Yeah. Just feels weird to make it the default--it essentially is just showing you how the 50th best Shaman/Paladin/etc ranks

Yeah but that 1-10 usually get there due to things going awefully wrong or cheesing. So it kind of makes sense.

There are other measures of central tendency, particularly the mean. Simply observing that using the median as the default measure encourages its use over others.

But I would point out that on the first week there really isn't much worry of cheesing. I'd actually suggest more worry of underwhelming performances.

The data probably most interesting to me would be the distribution of the sample used for a single class, which doesn't seem to exist. At the very least I'd expect cumulative distributions, but there's just single value percentiles. Oh well.. =(

Doing Lei Shen tonight, I have never felt more useless as a healer. The fight is constant movement, you almost never have people stay still long enough to be in a Healing Rain for its duration, and constant spread mechanics. I can see this fight become Heroic Rag 2.0 as far as Resto Shaman viability/usefulness, which is scary because it could be the heroic that we spend the most time on this tier.

It isn't just Lei Shen; about 11 of 12 fights are like that this tier, but it gets worse the more difficult the fights are.

It is also wonderful that they are rushing to buff mage DPS before the raid reset tomorrow, and buff tank DPS (for warriors/DKs), but are completely ignoring this, which is a much more glaring issue/much larger gap than either of those situations.

Healing Rain.

30 yard range.

There, I said it. Do it Blizzard, we'd still come in below paladins and priests.

Healing Rain.

30 yard range.

There, I said it. Do it Blizzard, we'd still come in below paladins and priests.

Yeah, it wouldn't make much difference this tier, because there is so much movement. They probably just need to put through a buff to Chain Heal and a passive buff to Purification as a hotfix for now, and look at major mechanics fixes before next tier.

Doing Lei Shen tonight, I have never felt more useless as a healer

I cleared my skada as soon as we downed the boss out of embarassment. I was closer to the prot pally than my disc/hpal co-healers (10m).

They probably just need to put through a buff to Chain Heal and a passive buff to Purification as a hotfix for now

Yeah, but it won't happen.

The sad part is there is literally no way to combat this. For spread healing, we essentially have 1 heal. HST on a 30second cooldown. I can't even gear for the breakpoint on this to at least contribute to spread aoe heals because of the haste bug. Oceanic ping :/

03/11/2013 09:37 PMPosted by Tiberria

Yeah, it wouldn't make much difference this tier, because there is so much movement.

As ludicrous as the suggestion was, I honestly think it would be a decent fix for now. You'd just need to factor movement into the placement.

I don't see any reason why a buff can't happen. Disc Priests were screaming bloody murder (mostly baselessly) at the start of this expansion and got a series of major buffs pushed through. The only reason for them to not do the same thing for Shaman (obviously not buff us so much they go overboard like they did with Disc) is that the Priest community is better at whining than we are.

Given the history that Resto shaman have had with buffs, I wouldn't expect a buff any time soon; and if we do get one, it will likely tackle the wrong things.

I wish Glyph of Riptide was at least a viable choice. Riptide already heals for way less than Rejuv and Serenity-Renew. Losing 90% of the initial heal just makes it a laughable glyph. Going glyph of RT and Chaining as a desperate last measure and still getting pathetic output is making me want to reroll paladin.

Given the history that Resto shaman have had with buffs, I wouldn't expect a buff any time soon; and if we do get one, it will likely tackle the wrong things.

I wish Glyph of Riptide was at least a viable choice. Riptide already heals for way less than Rejuv and Serenity-Renew. Losing 90% of the initial heal just makes it a laughable glyph. Going glyph of RT and Chaining as a desperate last measure and still getting pathetic output is making me want to reroll paladin.

Wasn't a 15% passive +healing buff pushed through mid-T11 when it was clear Resto Shaman were way behind? Given that buff and the Disc Priest buffs that were pushed through in the middle of last tier, I don't think that it's unreasonable to hope for something to be done.

Wasn't a 15% passive +healing buff pushed through mid-T11 when it was clear Resto Shaman were way behind? Given that buff and the Disc Priest buffs that were pushed through in the middle of last tier, I don't think that it's unreasonable to hope for something to be done.

What kind of buff are you proposing for Resto Shamans exactly? If Resto Shamans received a throughput buff that allowed them to keep pace with Holy Priests and Resto Druids, what exactly would be the reason to bring them over a Shaman?

This is especially since Shamans have much better raid CDs then Holy Priests and certainly much more utility and there has to be a trade-off somewhere for it.

03/11/2013 10:20 PMPosted by Ceddya

Wasn't a 15% passive +healing buff pushed through mid-T11 when it was clear Resto Shaman were way behind? Given that buff and the Disc Priest buffs that were pushed through in the middle of last tier, I don't think that it's unreasonable to hope for something to be done.

What kind of buff are you proposing for Resto Shamans exactly? If Resto Shamans received a throughput buff that allowed them to keep pace with Holy Priests and Resto Druids, what exactly would be the reason to bring them over a Shaman?

This is especially since Shamans have much better raid CDs then Holy Priests and certainly much more utility and there has to be a trade-off somewhere for it.

/facepalm

What kind of buff are you proposing for Resto Shamans exactly? If Resto Shamans received a throughput buff that allowed them to keep pace with Holy Priests and Resto Druids, what exactly would be the reason to bring them over a Shaman?

This is especially since Shamans have much better raid CDs then Holy Priests and certainly much more utility and there has to be a trade-off somewhere for it.

It has been said multiple times in Blue posts and tweets that there is no tax on DPS or HPS output for raid utility, and that the measure of utility is subjective. You also can not seriously argue that a 30% output gap along with completely inadequate mechanics to deal with the predominant damage patterns this tier is remotely acceptable. Not to mention the fact that Holy Paladins, who currently have more throughput than anyone else have arguably more raid utility than Shaman do.

On that note, you are also very wrong about Shaman CDs being much better than Holy Priest raid CDs. Healing Tide and Divine Hymn are pretty close. Both Ascendance and SLT are heavily neutered due to fight mechanics this tier, and will be nowhere near as significant. Also, if your concern is that Holy Priests don't have as much raid utility as Resto Shaman, then go make your own thread complaining about the lack of Holy Priest utility.

I would put through a significant buff to Chain Heal to make it actually worth casting and make the Glyph of Chaining jump increase baseline (for 10 man) so that there is actually a viable AoE healing option when Healing Rain is highly ineffective. I would then put through a passive +healing buff to bring output up to a more reasonable level, and reassess it next tier.

/facepalm

Prove otherwise? Are you arguing that it's balanced for a healer to have equal throughput but yet have better raid utility and CDs?

It has been said multiple times in Blue posts and tweets that there is no tax on DPS or HPS output for raid utility, and that the measure of utility is subjective. You also can not seriously argue that a 30% output gap along with completely inadequate mechanics to deal with the predominant damage patterns this tier is remotely acceptable. Not to mention the fact that Holy Paladins, who currently have more throughput than anyone else have arguably more raid utility than Shaman do.

On that note, you are also very wrong about Shaman CDs being much better than Holy Priest raid CDs. Healing Tide and Divine Hymn are pretty close. Both Ascendance and SLT are heavily neutered due to fight mechanics this tier, and will be nowhere near as significant. Also, if your concern is that Holy Priests don't have as much raid utility as Resto Shaman, then go make your own thread complaining about the lack of Holy Priest utility.

And where exactly are you seeing this 30% output gap in a 25-man? It has only been a week of normals, are you seriously going to argue healing balance based on this?

The main CDs - HTT and DH have similar output, but the fact that HTT isn't a channel like DH makes it a more reliable CD on multiple fights this tier which involve heavy damage with constant movement. SLT may not be useful on every fight, but there are more than a few fights with stack phases whereby it's better than what a Holy Priest has. This isn't even mentioning the fact that you bring the strongest mana CD in the form of MTT.

Any throughput buffs for Shamans, especially via mechanical improvements, have to be carefully considered in the grand scheme of healing balance.

03/11/2013 10:58 PMPosted by Ceddya

/facepalm

Prove otherwise? Are you arguing that it's balanced for a healer to have equal throughput but yet have better raid utility and CDs?

It has been said multiple times in Blue posts and tweets that there is no tax on DPS or HPS output for raid utility, and that the measure of utility is subjective. You also can not seriously argue that a 30% output gap along with completely inadequate mechanics to deal with the predominant damage patterns this tier is remotely acceptable. Not to mention the fact that Holy Paladins, who currently have more throughput than anyone else have arguably more raid utility than Shaman do.

On that note, you are also very wrong about Shaman CDs being much better than Holy Priest raid CDs. Healing Tide and Divine Hymn are pretty close. Both Ascendance and SLT are heavily neutered due to fight mechanics this tier, and will be nowhere near as significant. Also, if your concern is that Holy Priests don't have as much raid utility as Resto Shaman, then go make your own thread complaining about the lack of Holy Priest utility.

And where exactly are you seeing this 30% output gap in a 25-man? It has only been a week of normals, are you seriously going to argue healing balance based on this?

The main CDs - HTT and DH have similar output, but the fact that HTT isn't a channel like DH makes it a more reliable CD on multiple fights this tier which involve heavy damage with constant movement. SLT may not be useful on every fight, but there are more than a few fights with stack phases whereby it's better than what a Holy Priest has. This isn't even mentioning the fact that you bring the strongest mana CD in the form of MTT.

Any throughput buffs for Shamans, especially via mechanical improvements, have to be carefully considered in the grand scheme of healing balance.

If you are going to go arguing for throughput taxes (which according to the developers do not exist), then you need to take the utility that every spec brings to the table into account. They also need to consider the DPS contributions that are brought to the raid by Disc Priests and Mistweavers. Both of those specs can easily contribute 20-25% of the DPS of a main DPSer without really losing healing throughput. If you are going to argue balance around buffs like Mana Tide, I am going to argue that if a Priest can do 25% of the DPS of a DPS player, then they should be doing 25% less HPS than a healer that doesn't have that option.

Right now, let's say
Disc Priest throughput = 1.00 of a normal healer
Disc Priest DPS = 0.25 of a normal DPS
Resto Shaman throughput = 0.85 of an average healer (this is being generous)

Are you really going to argue that a Disc Priest, that is effectively bringing 1.25 of a raid member to the table is making an equal contribution of a Resto Shaman, that is bringing 0.85 of a raid member. Do the extra buffs Shaman bring (after subtracting off all of the extra value a priest brings) really work out to being work effectively 40% of a raid member? I call BS on that.

On top of that, the whole notion of mana batteries and buff bots were supposed to have died with TBC. How much fun is it to be effectively only brought to an encounter to drop a totem every 3 minutes? Not fun at all, which is why this entire concept was said to have been eradicated from game design long ago. It's a figment in the imagination of players trying to argue against DPS/HPS balance.

Are you really going to argue that a Disc Priest, that is effectively bringing 1.25 of a raid member to the table is making an equal contribution of a Resto Shaman, that is bringing 0.85 of a raid member. Do the extra buffs Shaman bring (after subtracting off all of the extra value a priest brings) really work out to being work effectively 40% of a raid member? I call BS on that.

On top of that, the whole notion of mana batteries and buff bots were supposed to have died with TBC. How much fun is it to be effectively only brought to an encounter to drop a totem every 3 minutes? Not fun at all, which is why this entire concept was said to have been eradicated from game design long ago. It's a figment in the imagination of players trying to argue against DPS/HPS balance.

Let's be honest, no Disc Priest will be doing 25% the DPS of a good raider, and certainly not on fights with an AoE component. The other issue is that you think the DPS contribution from a Disc Priest in a 25-man is the same as the vast utility a Shaman brings.

But that aside, I have no issues if they mechanically buffed CH by extending its jump range or by unlinking CH from Riptide and correspondingly increasing the base heal of CH. I would also have no issue if they increased the healing from RT or changed its Glyph to function as a viable tool for spread healing.

Essentially, I agree that Shamans could use some mechanical improvements to provide a modest bufff in output. I just disagree that Resto Shamans should be brought to the level of the other throughput healers, namely Holy Priests and Resto Druids.

After all, and you haven't answered this, why would you bring those two healers over a Resto Shaman if the latter brings the same output and more utility? There may not be a utility tax, but it doesn't make for good healer balance either.

Are you really going to argue that a Disc Priest, that is effectively bringing 1.25 of a raid member to the table is making an equal contribution of a Resto Shaman, that is bringing 0.85 of a raid member. Do the extra buffs Shaman bring (after subtracting off all of the extra value a priest brings) really work out to being work effectively 40% of a raid member? I call BS on that.

On top of that, the whole notion of mana batteries and buff bots were supposed to have died with TBC. How much fun is it to be effectively only brought to an encounter to drop a totem every 3 minutes? Not fun at all, which is why this entire concept was said to have been eradicated from game design long ago. It's a figment in the imagination of players trying to argue against DPS/HPS balance.

Essentially, I agree that Shamans could use some mechanical improvements to provide a modest bufff in output. I just disagree that Resto Shamans should be brought to the level of the other throughput healers, namely Holy Priests and Resto Druids.

After all, and you haven't answered this, why would you bring those two healers over a Resto Shaman if the latter brings the same output and more utility? There may not be a utility tax, but it doesn't make for good healer balance either

What game are you playing where Resto Druids and Holy Priests bring nothing to a raid but throughput? This mindset is extremely outdated. You can claim them "throughput healers" all day long but they're no more a throughput healer than a shaman.

Druid:
-Tranq
-Incarnation
-Ironbark
-Innervate
-Mass Roots/Knockback
-Disorient/Stun/Slow-Knockbackish
-Stampeding Roar
-T90 Talent (Helloo, ability to perform another role for 45 seconds?)
-SYMBIOSIS

And lets not forget their new mini-burst healing cooldown whatever you want to call it in Mushrooms

H Priests:
-Divine Hymn
-Lightwell
-Hymn of Hope
-Guardian Spirit
-Void Shift
-Roots/Fear/MC (via T1)
-Sprints (via T2, Angelic Feather/Body and Soul)
~Power Infusion
-T90 Talent
-Mass Dispel
-Leap of Faith

Not to mention the damage they can do in Chakra: Chastise

And I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

After all, and you haven't answered this, why would you bring those two healers over a Resto Shaman if the latter brings the same output and more utility? There may not be a utility tax, but it doesn't make for good healer balance either.

Hmm...why would you not, especially in 10s? It's been said, but as far as utilities go, it's not particularly fair to "tax" Shamans as being so much more significant than the other healers. After all, Shaman doesn't even have a real tank CD (pretty big deal right there), and would still suck for any movement fights (their mechanics would never change *that* much prior to 6.0 or whatever), and that's not getting into the many minor details. Shaman CDs are indeed powerful, but I do think some other specs are downplaying their own utility, especially when it really does matter on some fights. And as has been said, this implied utility tax IS flying in the face of everything Blizzard has apparently tried to phase out of the game. No one wants to be a butler all the time, it's not "fun".

Shaman deserve to at least be competitive on the HPS meters if they are performing exceptionally vs an average *inset class here*, even if the other classes might average out to be a little higher if skill and fight mechs were equal. Arguing otherwise is being pretty selfish, really.

Why do you feel that your spec should have no weakness? Healing is a team effort, after all.