Resto Shaman - Severely Lacking in T15

90 Pandaren Monk
13165
Why do you feel that your spec should have no weakness? Healing is a team effort, after all.


No one said that. Literally no one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
90 Draenei Priest
6975
03/12/2013 12:35 AMPosted by Thaimaishu
Why do you feel that your spec should have no weakness? Healing is a team effort, after all.


No one said that. Literally no one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


That was the point of the post. Good job!

On-topic, I agree that shamans have QoL issues and that they should probably receive some sort of buff (or, you know, actual QoL fixes), and probably before the end of the tier.
90 Goblin Shaman
17675
t14 i felt a little weak-ish compared to the disc priest and monk i heal alongside, but my bag-o-totems made up for it (mostly).

patch rolls around and everyone gets nerfs, buffs, new tricks and shamans get...nothing? hmm...well..maybe they are holding out for secret buffs! yeah!

clearing tot week 1, i hang my head and realize that i'm sitting there in front of a raging fire armed with a bucket of water. the 'nerfed' disc priest is now healing 9687458967459867 bajillion healings over me and i am sad.

blizz why you no love us STILL?! :(
90 Goblin Shaman
8425
03/12/2013 01:14 AMPosted by Metztli
clearing tot week 1, i hang my head and realize that i'm sitting there in front of a raging fire armed with a bucket of water. the 'nerfed' disc priest is now healing 9687458967459867 bajillion healings over me and i am sad.


Yeah- I'm not liking it much myself- our poor resto shaman feels useless against my disc priest. I feel bad for the guy to be honest.
90 Goblin Shaman
8370
I'd like to bring blizzard's attention to this too. This is simply too out of hand. They really need to do something before guilds start doing heroic progression and realized there are almost no reasons to bring us over other healers.

Saying "raidbots and world of logs don't mean everything" just makes blizzard looks stupid. The problem is very obvious and needs to be fixed now, not wait until patch 5.3 / 5.4.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
03/12/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Pebble
What game are you playing where Resto Druids and Holy Priests bring nothing to a raid but throughput? This mindset is extremely outdated. You can claim them "throughput healers" all day long but they're no more a throughput healer than a shaman.


- MTT, no other mana CD comes close to the amount of mana that it provides
- Reincarnation, exceedingly useful situationally, especially on progression
- SLT, a very good raid stabilizer when the raid is stacked. Contrary to popular belief, there are multiple fights this tier where it can be utilized well
- HTT, arguably a better raid CD than DH/Tranq, as it can be used when moving and does not require a channel

Not saying that Holy has no utility, but there are a few spells in this list that provide such strong raid buffs that's unmatched by the others.

I'm all for easing up on the mechanical restrictions of your toolkit, and for a slight boost to your output, but would you be willing to give up MTT to obtain equity in output?
Edited by Ceddya on 3/12/2013 3:23 AM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
What game are you playing where Resto Druids and Holy Priests bring nothing to a raid but throughput? This mindset is extremely outdated. You can claim them "throughput healers" all day long but they're no more a throughput healer than a shaman.


- MTT, no other mana CD comes close to the amount of mana that it provides
- Reincarnation, exceedingly useful situationally, especially on progression
- SLT, a very good raid stabilizer when the raid is stacked. Contrary to popular belief, there are multiple fights this tier where it can be utilized well
- HTT, arguably a better raid CD than DH/Tranq, as it can be used when moving and does not require a channel

Not saying that Holy has no utility, but there are a few spells in this list that provide such strong raid buffs that's unmatched by the others.

I'm all for easing up on the mechanical restrictions of your toolkit, and for a slight boost to your output, but would you be willing to give up MTT to obtain equity in output?


Healing Tide and Divine Hymn are for all intents and purposes close to equal. HTT isn't channeled, but also has other (slight) downsides like being tied to a Water totem, meaning can not be used at the same time as Mana Tide or Healing Stream. Also, you are conveniently forgetting about the healing done buff Divine Hymn puts on the targets that it heals.

SLT - sure Shaman have a second raid cooldown. What people that whine about that often forget is that we also are the only healer that lacks an external tank cooldown of any kind. Holy Priests have 2 effective tank cooldowns; which needs to be taken into account when considering raid utility.

Reincarnation - sure it's a situationally useful, iconic class ability, sort of like Spirit of Redemption, which can be arguably as useful? Reincarnation is more useful than SoR the times it is used, but is also the only cooldown in the game that isn't reset. SoR is available all the time.

Mana Tide, yes is unique and strong. However, you have Hymn of Hope, which is about 25-30% as good. Also, Resto Shaman are balanced around the regen gained from Mana Tide, so we are balanced around it as part of our regen equation. Other healers are balanced around not having it; they need to be, because you can not guarantee it will be there, especially in a 10 man raid. This is what Paragon said about MTT back in T12 (the last tier where Resto was awful) "Mana tide is more needed by the shamans them self then other healers, so you don't really need tide unless you bring shaman. ".

Let's not forget Mass Dispel; this is a huge deal on several fights this tier, and was on a couple of fights last tier. Priests are the only class period with a mass dispel mechanic that isn't tied to a 3 minute CD.

As far as you answer about why people would bring other healers if they buff Shaman up to a competitive level, it's that you need a proper balance of healing specs with their specs and weaknesses to be able to effectively heal the fight. With Shaman weaknesses, you flat out will not be able to heal the encounter if you try using more than 1-2, even if we do get band-aid fixes. Also, last tier Shaman had the same utility (more actually because Ascendance and SLT were much more effective), and output that was reasonably competitive (within 10% of all non (broken OP) Disc healers). They were not being stacked to any unreasonable degree last tier, which invalidates that concern. The entire concern is overblown to begin with. Almost no one was stacking more than 2 Disc Priests last tier (despite them being ridiculously OP) outside of Heroic Shek'zeer. You didn't commonly see 3+ Resto Druids stacked in Firelands.

And yes, Mana Tide is a terrible mechanic, and I would be all for seeing it made Shaman only, or at least give 2-3x more mana to the casting Shaman to be made more in line with Hymn of Hope.

Can we get back to discussing Shaman yet, instead of trying to make this thread into a pity party about Holy Priests? Can you not make your own thread for that?
Edited by Tiberria on 3/12/2013 3:50 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
but would you be willing to give up MTT to obtain equity in output?


Well really MTT doesn't affect a shaman more than it does any other raid member. And on that note they broke shaman offensive mana return but then gave it to two other classes which i find odd.
Edited by Sadiemay on 3/12/2013 3:48 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
03/11/2013 08:58 PMPosted by Tiberria
Doing Lei Shen tonight, I have never felt more useless as a healer. The fight is constant movement, you almost never have people stay still long enough to be in a Healing Rain for its duration,


While i agree there is a bit of movement HR was still my highest throughput spell used on the fight. Only thing that i really though was out of place was the rushing wind in Ph3. If you don't have swg or ns off cd it is a bit troublesome.

edit: and ceddya's points are valid and worth asking. Nothing wrong with the other healing classes putting in their 2 cents as healing is a team sport.
Edited by Sadiemay on 3/12/2013 3:53 AM PDT
90 Tauren Shaman
16500
healing is a team sport


I dunno about you, but I sure as hell avoided passing to the fat kid.

Shamans are the fat kid :(
Edited by Convictfish on 3/12/2013 8:46 AM PDT
65 Dwarf Shaman
10415
The fat kid could still tackle people and give you one hell of a time in other scenarios. I don't think we get that luxury either.
90 Tauren Shaman
16500
The fat kid could still tackle people and give you one hell of a time in other scenarios. I don't think we get that luxury either.


What if it's non-contact....?

D:
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
It is only normal modes, but this is a compilation of over 30,000 healing parses (and 6800 Resto Shaman parses) from the first week of T15 in 25 man, so this is a pretty huge sample size. Here is a fight by fight breakdown of how weak we currently appear.

Overall - 6th place - 26% behind

Jin'rokh - 5th place - 16% behind
Horridon - 6th place - 28% behind
Council of Elders - 6th place - 31% behind
Tortos - 6th place - 39% behind
Megaera - 6th place - 30% behind
Ji-Kun - 5th place - 29% behind
Durumu - 6th place - 35% behind
Primordius - 6th place - 36% behind
Dark Animus - 6th place - 33% behind
Iron Qon - 6th place - 25% behind
Twin Consorts - 6th place - 48% behind
Lei Shen - 6th place - 31% behind

When you look at it on a fight by fight basis, the issue is even more alarming. On top of that, there really isn't a clear top healer across all fights. Disc Priests, Holy Priests, Paladins and Mistweavers all have at least one fight where they are the top healer.

Shaman are last place in 10 of 12 fights, second from last in the other two. Even in fights with phases where there is a lot of stacked healing required and where you would expect Shaman to be doing reasonably well. (i.e Jin'rokh, Iron Qon, Megaera), Shaman are not shining at all. There are only two fights where Shaman are less than 25% behind and 0 fights where we are within 15%.

These are all 25 man numbers, based on looking at all parses. I don't even want to look at 10 man; the situation is likely to be even worse.
Edited by Tiberria on 3/12/2013 9:28 AM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
8960
Just healed a 10m yesterday before the reset, and although I normally raid in 25m, we just hosted an off-night 10m to see if we could down any bosses, I have parses from these fights, I was healing with a resto druid and a holy paladin, both are very good healers. We aren't a bleeding edge progression guild, so I know we can argue that as long as the boss dies we shouldn't complain. However, I don't think those people have experienced how limited the shaman toolkit is for healing, in some fights you really have to work hard to keep up with your fellow healers, and that is fine, but it is the times when you do work hard and try to do everything that you can and only do barely more healing than the tank that really upsets me.

Anyway, here is the parse for Tortos:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-994k7mvdrglceiw7/sum/healingDone/?s=8249&e=8640

This was a kill, and I'm pretty happy with it, I swear I have worked harder for that than I ever have, but it felt like an accomplishment at the end. I'm not saying I do everything perfectly, and by all means if someone here finds a spell I should or should not be using, I wouldn't mind the input; I'm not perfect and I don't claim to be doing everything perfect.

Here is the parse that really really upsets me Megaera:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-994k7mvdrglceiw7/sum/healingDone/?s=19554&e=20147

Again, I don't claim to have done everything perfect, but I feel like I was bringing the same amount of... for lack of a better word ingenuity to the fight, finding and troubleshooting which spells worked better than others at what time, however for the one part of the fight that is best for me, during the stacked rampages, I had healing rain down, even used Ascendance on one of them, and SLT (even though that was totally useless) and all the worst that the raid ever got to was maybe 75% hp, looking at the graph its obvious that a majority of the damage was absorbed, probably by the disc and holy pally. I asked if they wouldn't mind saving their mana during those phases and letting me heal the raid up since I know I can do it, and that is the only part of the fight where I can really help in any significant way. The response was that it didn't cost them significant mana to do that much healing, which is completely understandable, it really did only take 5% of their mana to heal up those phases so a lot of my healing rain and cds ended up as over healing. Honestly from the way the fight and their spells are designed I can't blame them for trying to do their very best and succeeding. I just kind of wish that if I use my cds at the right time and my spells at the right time I can at least be rewarded for my efforts; doing barely more healing than the pally tank was just demoralizing, and even more demoralizing was the thought that we didn't down the boss, so if they had brought in another priest or another holy paladin would the have gotten it that night? It troubles me to think that I'm holding my raid group back, but I am very fortunate to have them as friends as well. We came close on a couple of our attempts so I think we could have done it with me in the group, but I can't shake the feeling it would be easier with another class.

Also, I just wanted to add, my lack of chain heal usage was down to the fact that the previous attempts where I did try using it, it never made complete jumps and the slow, very slow cast time was the reason, after a poison/acid whatever bolt the raid would take aoe damage, I would try chain heal, and before I could get the heal off 5 to 6 raid members either spread in the melee or ranged groups (I tried to aim for range) got healed up instantly and broke the chain. So I stopped bothering to use chain heal as it was a waste of mana.

Again, I'm not in a hardcore progression guild, I'm not claiming that everything I do is correct at all, nor are the two parses I posted here representative of all shamans, this is merely my experience so far that have made me feel like I'm doing alright, and felt absolutely worthless. It would be nice to know what I could have done differently perhaps to be more help, but I am really struggling to figure out how or what that something is...
Edited by Janthara on 3/12/2013 9:38 AM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
03/12/2013 09:42 AMPosted by Tiriel
Let's not forget Mass Dispel; this is a huge deal on several fights this tier, and was on a couple of fights last tier. Priests are the only class period with a mass dispel mechanic that isn't tied to a 3 minute CD.


You would never bring a Holy Priest for this. Not only would they not have the mana regen to use the spell (it is extremely expensive), they would have to give up a glyph slot to make the cast time shorter.

As far as you answer about why people would bring other healers if they buff Shaman up to a competitive level, it's that you need a proper balance of healing specs with their specs and weaknesses to be able to effectively heal the fight. With Shaman weaknesses, you flat out will not be able to heal the encounter if you try using more than 1-2, even if we do get band-aid fixes. Also, last tier Shaman had the same utility (more actually because Ascendance and SLT were much more effective), and output that was reasonably competitive (within 10% of all non (broken OP) Disc healers). They were not being stacked to any unreasonable degree last tier, which invalidates that concern. The entire concern is overblown to begin with. Almost no one was stacking more than 2 Disc Priests last tier (despite them being ridiculously OP) outside of Heroic Shek'zeer. You didn't commonly see 3+ Resto Druids stacked in Firelands.


Shaman are already competitive. We've taken at least one Shaman to every single one of our kills this tier, sometimes two.

Can we get back to discussing Shaman yet, instead of trying to make this thread into a pity party about Holy Priests? Can you not make your own thread for that?


You are the one who claims there is no utility tax. The thing is, what the Devs say, and what they actually do, are often two different things. You really cannot have it both ways - awesome CDs AND top healing.


I don't think anyone is asking for "top healing". What we are asking for is competitive output. There is a big difference. You can not seriously argue that output gaps of 25% or greater on almost every fight this tier constitutes competitive output, or is a reasonable penalty for the non-existent utility tax.

I will also point out that Disc Priests and Holy Priests in T14 were nowhere near as far behind at the start of the tier as Resto Shaman are in T15, but were still given buff after buff despite bringing very strong raid utility.
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
What the data does seem to confirm is that Resto Shaman's skill cap seems to be the highest of all the healing specs, at least for this tier. Maybe Blizzard could relax it a bit.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
What the data does seem to confirm is that Resto Shaman's skill cap seems to be the highest of all the healing specs, at least for this tier. Maybe Blizzard could relax it a bit.


They could go a long way by simply doing away with the Glyph of Chaining, increasing the range of the jumps on chain heal, and making it do more healing for the mana you spend on it.
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