Resto Shaman - Severely Lacking in T15

90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I guess they could, but tale as old as time. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see Blizzard react with some tweaking of CH but I would expect significant changes elsewhere just by precedent.
100 Draenei Shaman
14565
I am reading these posts and the first thing that pops into my head is that Resto Shamans got no love at all. They tried to make other talents viable, but they are still garbage in comparison to HTT (that should be baseline anyway), unless in very niche situations.

Do you all think that using Ancestral Guidance would be better since it has a lower CD than healing tide? That's probly a stupid question, but I was just curious as I have not tried it.

Additionally, I have had only ten man experience on two bosses. The first boss was relatively simple to stack on the edge of the "water" and get a healing rain out, plus other spells. Additionally, Horridon, I am low until I can get a major CD out there which promotes me to first on a regular basis on the meters.

I have been using ascendance a lot more, and GHW a lot as well. Having a bonus to unleash weapons helps when over 4 people are at or around the 60% or below mark on Horridon. The elementals helped little to none. :(

I can understand the frustration. It has made me feel pretty constricted as a healer.
What the data does seem to confirm is that Resto Shaman's skill cap seems to be the highest of all the healing specs, at least for this tier. Maybe Blizzard could relax it a bit.

While that may be true, there is only so much effort and skill that a regular player (and even hardcore raids) can push before the very own mechanics and limitations make us hit a brick wall. It takes good thought and raid awareness to place Healing Rain in a high movement fight, but the moment that movement and spreading is required by the raid, all that effort goes to waste.

I started raiding T14 very late, so our group is still struggling through the first bosses in the ToT. However, trying to heal Council has so far been MUCH more frustating than heroic Firelands ever was. I'm slightly less geared than my co-healers (Druid and Disc), but a few ilvls is not going to cause the 30% gap I was getting in Council every single pull last night while us 3 were within 5% of each other in Jin'rokh.

I love healing and have played all healers minus MW through my time in WoW. I know that each one has their weakness and their strengths. However, while other healers feel great in their niche while decent outside of it, Shaman feel decent in theirs while poor outside of it.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I guess they could, but tale as old as time. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see Blizzard react with some tweaking of CH but I would expect significant changes elsewhere just by precedent.


Well, the reason they gave for leaving CH jumps the way they are is that the engine couldn't support larger jumps.

Then they put out the Glyph of Chaining, which added insult to injury by putting a CD on the damn spell.

They really need to just fix Chain Heal. And they need to tone down Shaman reliance on HR. No class should be chained (hue hue) to a ground heal that they basically have to use on CD, and if they can't use it, their throughput tanks.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I can't see Ancestral Guidance being viable.

Let's assume HTT does 2.2 million healing per use (which is about what I average on a good use of it). That means that AG would need to be able to do at least 1.47 million healing per use to match it from a pure output perspective. To be able to get 1.47 million healing from AG, you would need to be doing about 82,000 HPS in single target heals during the 10 second window that it is up. This isn't 82,000 HPS total; it only counts direct single target heals, so HR/HST, etc that is ticking won't count, You need to do 82,000 HPS/820,000 healing from HW/HS/GHW alone.

Let's assume your GHW hits for an average of 60,000 and you have 25% raid buffed crit. You would need to get off an average of 11 GHW during that time frame to hit the threshold to make AG better than HTT. Obviously, that is not possible, because GHW has a 1.4-1.5 second cast time, you need to use GCD time on Riptide in between casts to keep it at that cast time, and you only have 10 seconds total. A more realistic estimate is that you would get a maximum of 6 GHW off in a 10 second span. This means you are doing a projected 810,000 healing per AG usage, which is barely more than half what you would need to even match what HTT can do.

That isn't even factoring in the enormous amount of mana that you need to blow to maximize AG, the 10 seconds of hard casting required (a limitation due to the high mobility of this tier - unless you want to use your SWG CD every time), and the 10 seconds that you need to spend casting single target heals instead of casting what is most efficient/appropriate. In comparison, HTT is a single GCD and marginal mana cost.

The bottom line is, there is no way AG will be competitive with HTT for Resto outside of fight gimmicks like Tsulong. They seriously need to buff it by at least 250% before it is even really worth considering as a viable alternative.
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
03/12/2013 11:38 AMPosted by Nepthyss
Do you all think that using Ancestral Guidance would be better since it has a lower CD than healing tide?


If it were on a 60 sec cd it would start to rival HTT. Maybe even 45 sec. Currently HTT is making up 15-20%ish of overall healing. It's created a monster.

As per the jump of CH i am on the fence on that. I like the risk reward of using it wisely personally. Just need to remove the degridation and possily tie AA to it. 10yard stack is usually the max distance and melee are not affected by the same mechanics as ranged. I am rambling now, moving on.
Edited by Sadiemay on 3/12/2013 11:57 AM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
03/12/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Korghal
What the data does seem to confirm is that Resto Shaman's skill cap seems to be the highest of all the healing specs, at least for this tier. Maybe Blizzard could relax it a bit.

While that may be true, there is only so much effort and skill that a regular player (and even hardcore raids) can push before the very own mechanics and limitations make us hit a brick wall. It takes good thought and raid awareness to place Healing Rain in a high movement fight, but the moment that movement and spreading is required by the raid, all that effort goes to waste.

I started raiding T14 very late, so our group is still struggling through the first bosses in the ToT. However, trying to heal Council has so far been MUCH more frustating than heroic Firelands ever was. I'm slightly less geared than my co-healers (Druid and Disc), but a few ilvls is not going to cause the 30% gap I was getting in Council every single pull last night while us 3 were within 5% of each other in Jin'rokh.

I love healing and have played all healers minus MW through my time in WoW. I know that each one has their weakness and their strengths. However, while other healers feel great in their niche while decent outside of it, Shaman feel decent in theirs while poor outside of it.


I don't honestly think Resto Shaman skill cap is that high relative to other healers. I think that healers that require a fair amount of pre-emptive casting/damage prediction to get shields and HoTs up before damage happens (i.e. Druids, Paladins, Disc Priests) have a higher overall skill cap.

What makes Shaman numbers vary so wildly from fight to fight is more the mechanics of our mastery. On a fight where everything goes well and people don't really dip, our output is heavily suppressed. A Resto Shaman in a raid with 3 Disc Priests and 2 holy pallies is going to do a lot less healing that a Resto Shaman of the same skill level in a raid with 0 Disc Priests and 1 Holy Pally. This is true for other healers too, but the nature of the Deep Healing Mastery just us dip and rise even more than anyone else based on the level of healing suppression and the level of damage that is going out.
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
03/12/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Korghal
While that may be true, there is only so much effort and skill that a regular player (and even hardcore raids) can push before the very own mechanics and limitations make us hit a brick wall.


It would not be considered unfounded should one conclude that I used the phrase 'skill cap' for that reason, at least up until 'brick wall'.

Well, the reason they gave for leaving CH jumps the way they are is that the engine couldn't support larger jumps.


That may be, but I was alluding to Blizzard's iterations of specifically stating that they would rather fix Shaman shortcomings by other means.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
03/12/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Sadiemay
Do you all think that using Ancestral Guidance would be better since it has a lower CD than healing tide?


If it were on a 60 sec cd it would start to rival HTT. Maybe even 45 sec. Currently HTT is making up 15-20%ish of overall healing. It's created a monster.

As per the jump of CH i am on the fence on that. I like the risk reward of using it wisely personally. Just need to remove the degridation and possily tie AA to it. 10yard stack is usually the max distance and melee are not affected by the same mechanics as ranged. I am rambling now, moving on.


They can't mess with the CD, because of the impact that has on the other specs. AG is already pretty close to being a no brainer for PvE DPS specs, because it generally does more healing than HTT (with DPS specs not getting the +25% healing and +50% water totem passives), and is off the GCD. If they reduce the CD, it will become the 100% option. The only thing they can tweak is the percentage of healing being redistributed. I suspect that needs to go from 60% to at least 150% before the talent becomes a real option.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
That may be, but I was alluding to Blizzard's iterations of specifically stating that they would rather fix Shaman shortcomings by other means.


I think they're scared of Chain Heal spam.

Nevermind that it's the only option Shaman really have.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
They can't mess with the CD, because of the impact that has on the other specs. AG is already pretty close to being a no brainer for PvE DPS specs, because it generally does more healing than HTT (with DPS specs not getting the +25% healing and +50% water totem passives), and is off the GCD. If they reduce the CD, it will become the 100% option. The only thing they can tweak is the percentage of healing being redistributed. I suspect that needs to go from 60% to at least 150% before the talent becomes a real option.


They could add a passive Resto talent that lowers the CD just for them. This has been done with several other classes.
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The fear of Chain Heal is really kind of silly. Things like Holy Radiance, Prayer of Healing and Rejuv/Wild Growth have all gone through periods of class design where they are as overpowered/spammed as Chain Heal ever was. The only real difference is that Chain Heal has a relatively obnoxious graphic maybe relative to those other spells and they don't want to see it all over kill videos like you did in SWP?
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
03/12/2013 12:05 PMPosted by Tiriel
They can't mess with the CD, because of the impact that has on the other specs. AG is already pretty close to being a no brainer for PvE DPS specs, because it generally does more healing than HTT (with DPS specs not getting the +25% healing and +50% water totem passives), and is off the GCD. If they reduce the CD, it will become the 100% option. The only thing they can tweak is the percentage of healing being redistributed. I suspect that needs to go from 60% to at least 150% before the talent becomes a real option.


They could add a passive Resto talent that lowers the CD just for them. This has been done with several other classes.


It is better to have AG be stronger on a longer CD than at its current strength on a shorter CD. Making the most of it means blowing a lot of mana within a 10 second window. If you make it a 45-60 second CD, the mana expenditure needed becomes a further barrier to it becoming viable, because you would have to burn that huge amount of mana more often.
Giving AG an additional effect of reducing the mana cost of healing spells by a good marging could be a decent step into making it more attractive. Burning a huge chunk of our mana bar just to make AG close to HTT's output is not attractive to anyone. Additionally, reducing the cooldown as Harpoa mentions could help as well; however, that would just push Ele and Enh further into taking it over HTT/Conductivity (which I know are never taken by them, anyway) and Blizzard would not want that.

As per the jump of CH i am on the fence on that. I like the risk reward of using it wisely personally. Just need to remove the degridation and possily tie AA to it. 10yard stack is usually the max distance and melee are not affected by the same mechanics as ranged. I am rambling now, moving on.

I don't have as many issues with CH's jump right now. While I still wish I could get the Chaining effect baseline, first I'd like to see my CH doing more healing than a single HW crit. Buffing the output would be an ok band-aid to begin with. As for AA, I've never understood why CH is not included in it.

Something I would enjoy seeing is CH consuming TW instead of producing them, so that TW would become more of a resource for us and gave CH a bit more synergy with our toolkit.
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
AG is already pretty close to being a no brainer for PvE DPS specs


Well the current state of elemental i am sure they can use it.

Elem and fire mages were neck and neck and it took them 3 days to decide the mage dps was too low and they are being adjusted. Elem being towards the bottom, 3 years?

edit: and it is not all doom and gloom for shaman, we currently run two resto, and elem and an enhance in our 25. Don't want to sound like a debbie downer.
Edited by Sadiemay on 3/12/2013 12:14 PM PDT
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
The only real difference is that Chain Heal has a relatively obnoxious graphic maybe relative to those other spells and they don't want to see it all over kill videos like you did in SWP?


Lol, I'm sure that didn't help.

Maybe they will consider it. Blizzard is always trying to "stay current" but they, for lack of better word, have always seemed too stubborn with Shaman design. The most radical thing, unless I'm missing something, we've gotten is the totem "rework" which isn't really anything different intrinsically.

The number one thing keeping me from falling back onto niches is certainly the immense evolution of the Paladin toolkit.
90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
03/12/2013 12:04 PMPosted by Tiriel
That may be, but I was alluding to Blizzard's iterations of specifically stating that they would rather fix Shaman shortcomings by other means.


I think they're scared of Chain Heal spam.

Nevermind that it's the only option Shaman really have.


Except that it isn't the "only option." We aren't in wrath anymore. Would chain heal be our "go to" spell in spread AoE situations if it wasn't awful (and had a range increase), of course, but isn't that kind of the point?
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Except that it isn't the "only option." We aren't in wrath anymore. Would chain heal be our "go to" spell in spread AoE situations if it wasn't awful (and had a range increase), of course, but isn't that kind of the point?


Your other options are single-target healing, or um...HST?

My point was more that other classes have been allowed to "spam" a particular spell, but apparently it's not allowed for Shaman. And I don't quite get the logic.
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
And I don't quite get the logic.


4-5 years ago, shaman forums, anger still lingers.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/12/2013 12:17 PMPosted by Sadiemay
And I don't quite get the logic.


4-5 years ago, shaman forums, anger still lingers.


My rage from Firelands will never be extinguished.
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