Council of Elders over tuned for 10m.

100 Human Death Knight
13690
U think Horridon over tuned for 10m? That is because u haven't reach Council of Elders yet.

With 500+ average ilvl and a whole-day attempts, I should admit that there is huge difficulty gap between Horridon and CoE. If Horridon is only "too hard", then CoE should called "nearly impossible". Yes, it is impossible for a 500 ilvl 10m team who can easily farm 8/16H in 5.1. Even we did everything without any mistake, our healers would go OOM at Sandcrawler's 2nd activation.

Don't think it is fair to design a 10m boss with nearly same damage, same interrupt requirement, same add number and CC requirement as 25m. In 25m u can have 2+ melee to stick on Sandcrawler to interrupt, or even have one more tank to focus on dealing the living sand or frostbite, not mention that 25m have more damage reduction arrangement. I have also heared that 25m CoE is a joke too.

Yet there are 2 bugs in this boss:
1. When Kazra is actived. He may charge and stun himself continously even when more than 25% of his health dropped. And before his stun expires, he will use dark energy to continously AOE the team.
2. It is said in the text that the Dark Energy AOE is increased by 10% per sec (that should be 10k at first sec, 11k at second sec, etc...). However from the battle record we can see that the AOE damage is 10k at first sec, 20k at second sec. It is a 100% increase. Is it a dungeon journal text error or the damage increase amount is wrong?

All in all, the annoying bugs and more than strict requirement in operation make this boss over tuned in 10m.
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59 Draenei Death Knight
10360
Blizzard's clever strategy to move players to 25man raiding.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I did this boss with a 10 man composed of 3-4 mains who sat this week during our normal 25 man raids (including this character, who is only ilvl 498 geared) and alts. Our third healer was a Resto Druid in ilvl 480 gear.

We downed it.

Edited to Add: We never saw Kazra do what you're describing. If you let any of the mobs get to 100 dark energy, it's effectively a wipe.
Edited by Tiriel on 3/11/2013 12:51 AM PDT
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100 Human Death Knight
13690
Kazra's bug occurs sometimes, not all the time. But when it happens the whole team would suffer several seconds of AOE damage. I mean we hit more than 25% of his health before Dark Energy got to 100, but he still stuned himself and accumulated dark energy and AOE the team after 100 Dark Energy.

BTW, what is your tanks classes? Feels that DK and Pally can do well in this fight, but Warrior is weak compared to other tanks.
Edited by Remiscarlet on 3/11/2013 1:02 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Kazra's bug occurs sometimes, not all the time. But when it happens the whole team would suffer several seconds of AOE damage. I mean we hit more than 25% of his health before Dark Energy got to 100, but he still stuned himself and accumulated dark energy and AOE the team after 100 Dark Energy.

BTW, what is your tanks classes? Feels that DK and Pally can do well in this fight, but Warrior is weak compared to other tanks.


We had a Paladin and a Warrior.
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100 Human Paladin
16040
03/11/2013 12:32 AMPosted by Remiscarlet
Yes, it is impossible for a 500 ilvl 10m team who can easily farm 8/16H in 5.1. Even we did everything without any mistake, our healers would go OOM at Sandcrawler's 2nd activation.


How could you have 2 Sul Empowered? In our best attempt we had Sul at 5% at the end of his first Empowered, and that was with one of our top dps absent for the day... He would never empower again if we didn't messed up royally afterward... Did you try to get the elders out of empower as quickly as possible? Don't do it! You would want to budget at least 1 dps to almost full time on Sul so he will never have a second Empowered...

Granted this fight feels much harder than Horridon and we didn't down him this week (1 raider absent and tons of DC ftl) but they don't seem impossible for 8/16H guilds... On the other hand, I would totally expect CoE to be the center of attention in 2 weeks when guilds starting to down Horridon... :)
Edited by Emmey on 3/11/2013 2:02 AM PDT
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100 Human Death Knight
13690
Yes, it is impossible for a 500 ilvl 10m team who can easily farm 8/16H in 5.1. Even we did everything without any mistake, our healers would go OOM at Sandcrawler's 2nd activation.


How could you have 2 Sul Empowered? In our best attempt we had Sul at 5% at the end of his first Empowered, and that was with one of our top dps absent for the day... He would never empower again if we didn't messed up royally afterward... Did you try to get the elders out of empower as quickly as possible? Don't do it! You would want to budget at least 1 dps to almost full time on Sul so he will never have a second Empowered...

Granted this fight feels much harder than Horridon and we didn't down him this week (1 raider absent and tons of DC ftl) but they don't seem impossible for 8/16H guilds... On the other hand, I would totally expect CoE to be the center of attention in 2 weeks when guilds starting to down Horridon... :)

We tried to spare 1 DPS to full time stick on Sul, however if we don't get Kazra out of empower as quickly as we can, he may stun himself at like 90 dark energy and blablabla...

We were misleaded by Method's video? On our best try we killed Malakk and then Sul got empowered and we wiped. However if we decided to kill Sul first, I'm afraid there will be huge DPS requirement and may need lots of dual-target classed like Warlock and Spriest...
Edited by Remiscarlet on 3/11/2013 2:31 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15825
Next week: You think 10m Horridon and Council of Elders is overtuned? WAIT UNTIL YOU GET TO TORTOS.
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100 Human Death Knight
13690
Next week: You think 10m Horridon and Council of Elders is overtuned? WAIT UNTIL YOU GET TO TORTOS.

Yes I've heard that 10m Tortos was much more overtuned than CoE. What should I say? "LOL"...
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100 Troll Hunter
20925
You don't need to leave DPS on Sul full time, you just need to start out dpsing Sul and swap back to him in between possessions. Also just stack them all together and cleave/AoE as you please, Mar'li's heal is of little consequence and can easily be singled out for a quick stun as it spawns regardless. You shouldn't get more than one Sandstorm phase this way.
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100 Goblin Mage
20515
Is this the new "lost a roll, posted on forums" trend for 5.2? Calling every fight overtuned?
Edited by Swiftyclicks on 3/11/2013 3:43 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
12980
Is this the new "lost a roll, posted on forums" trend for 5.2? Calling every fight overtuned?


Pretty much. A boss that's really hard even got good gear = nerf so we can kill it and get out loots. A whole DAY of raiding and you didn't get your loot *gasp* people used to spent weeks and month+ on one boss.

It's got so bad on the forums you can't even tell if a fight is legitimately bugged/overtuned because anyone who can't down a boss just blame it being overtuned and hopes forum spam will get a nerf.
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93 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Our group is 5/16 hm and we made very good progress yesterday on COE. A lot of understanding and knowledge was gained. We kept trying different strats and different positions. Our dps felt low yesterday which is unusual because we dont normally struggle on dps checks, thus we had a few 100 dark energy pulses. As stated in the guide even with 10sec of pulses the raid should be ok. I looked up logs of priests to see how to squeeze more hps out of my rotation and I think I found something I will try next week.

Is this encounter difficult, yes, is it impossible for a 495-500 ilevel group, absolutely not. We are starting to clean up the mechanics and hopefully get it next raid. In my casual guild downing 2-3 new bosses/week for normal and 1-2 bosses/week for heroic should be where we are at. At this rate the tier would last roughly 16-20 weeks or so, which is 4-5 months for the casual guild. This seems pretty good for a tier.

Stop complaining and continue raiding. Good luck next week.
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90 Orc Shaman
13550
Boss didn't fall over after 1 day, must be overtuned.
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100 Human Paladin
16040
We were misleaded by Method's video? On our best try we killed Malakk and then Sul got empowered and we wiped. However if we decided to kill Sul first, I'm afraid there will be huge DPS requirement and may need lots of dual-target classed like Warlock and Spriest...

Few reasons I can give on why killing Sul first is the better choice:
* Sul's empowered is much more dangerous than any other, both in avoidable and unavoidable damage.
* Sul's second empowered is much more dangerous than the first because you will have more (twice?) quicksand to deal with in addition to extra 5% damage dealt... So unless you have amazing healers, consider Sul's second empowered as a soft enrage... The same is not true for Malakk, his second empowered is only 5% more damaging than first...
* Having a melee near-full-time on Sul can help with interrupt, making some happy healers.
* Sul is always on opposite of Priest, making LoA spirit always have long travel time for free.
* We ask the melee on Sul to "help out a bit" on Kazra; this is not because of bug but because he doesn't have tank damage on him full time unlike other elder, so he deserves a bit more attention from dps...

edit: we wiped to Kazrak enraged a few times in early attempts (back when we didn't ask Sul's dps to help out) but it never occurred to us that he's bugged... when we ask the dps to hit Kaz until he's half energy we never seen him enraged again...
Edited by Emmey on 3/11/2013 10:05 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
We two heal two tanked it.

We used 5 DPS on the Empowered Target start-to-finish except at the beginning when we hero'd Sul.

We had a warrior and myself on Sul rotating interrupts via vent to lower damage as much as possible.

We did hit a few pulse phases, but as long as the healers were aware then a rotation of cooldowns and healthstones let us make them manageable.

Make sure everyone has something to use (CD's, healthstones, pots w/e) during the transition to Sul. If you get your entire group through into the Sul phase then your Sul tank should just kite at that point. Basically just run around like a mad-man and let them burn down adds. I found hauling them off to the side out of the group the easiest.

We found the second sandstorm (which you're suppose to avoid) much easier than the first because of all the interrupts on him - few if any extra adds popped from it. We got it because we were kiting Sul to stay out of the sand on the ground as add's dropped.

It is a very very difficult fight - harder than Horrodin for a coordinated group imo - but doable. It took us a lot of time to figure out when to swap to Frost Lord, if we could spare the extra DPS to burn down Sul, etc.
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100 Troll Druid
19645
2 heal 2 tank.
1 melee on Sul full time, lust at start and nuke Sul until first add spawns.
We killed Sul before he even empowered - keep in mind we had a few undergeared people as we moved to 2 days a week this tier, at best we're avg ilvl 500 between us all, probably less.

When we got there the first time we just messed around with different strats to find the right one, but once we switched to this one, took 5 or so pulls and it died. The biggest issue for us was not enough dps on the empowered target occasionally (Due to people not switching quick enough or stuff like that), but once we had a decent attempt it wasn't really that bad.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7565
Alright, everyone start prepping for the nerf Magaera thread.
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100 Goblin Mage
20515
Alright, everyone start prepping for the nerf Magaera thread.


Waiting for the Tortos is overtuned thread first. Hey, I might as well start it myself, having wiped for a whole night on him last night.

Sure, we were 9 manning it the whole time cause people didn't show, and we had to use undergeared alts for the comp to work out, but... a whole night of wipes and I still don't have loot? Must be overtuned, fix it blizz!
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90 Tauren Paladin
16365
You don't understand Empowerment correctly. You can't simply knock off 25%, you have to knock off 25% of their health AFTER they empower.

It might be easier on 25m, but most of the "issues" you are describing about this fight aren't hard to deal with.

You don't have to have melee interrupt Sand Bolts, although we effectively used 3 people. The tank can move Marii over during her empowerment, and he can move over and help interrupt Sul after he has established threat on Marii. If you leave 1 melee to sit, you have 3 people interrupting. If it's a big deal, you can have a shaman with a focus macro/mage/hunter, whatever you need, It's a QoL thing at best.

If you are doing everything flawlessly, you are probably approaching the fight wrong. You can effectively ignore Sul's empowerment altogether, and at best, you should only get one Sandstorm / set of Living Sands.

STOP making overtuned threads for fights that are not overtuned. Re-evaluate your strategy. If you can't down a boss in one day, it's likely that the fight isn't impossible, you are just approaching it wrong. Stop assuming fights will be faceroll, you might have to put some thought into it.
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