Combat DPS Viable Heading into Heroic ToT

90 Night Elf Rogue
12195
My guild will be heading into H-ToT tonight and im now at the point of worry about my spec. heroic difficulty will require every raid member be in top form wether tanking/dpsing/healing. I have been parsing on fights as we kill them but notice more and more my name appearing in the bottom 12/16-17 DPS. I am a seasoned Combat rogue and have been raiding hard since Cata, playing since vanilla. I guess my main problem is now when we get to these fights that require a specific output, I am only able to provide so much that I will be sat or FORCED to play another spec. This is now a growing concern for me.

I understand that in a above average raiding situation a choice like this might need to be made, however I feel my spec is now caught in the middle mediocracy. PVE - Assassination is tops for raiding and Sub is the go to spec for PVP. Combat has no niche no real benefit to play, we don't have our 'big stick' anymore w/ bladeflurry, so I guess the real question is:

What does combat bring to the table now for a raid/PVP that differentiates itself from the other two specs?

Combat is now parsing the lower quartile in regards to raid dps for spec's and it is unfortunate, I am almost to the point that if a dagger drops I will be FORCED to spec sination. This was a swing in the wrong direction. Blade flurry dealing less damage than FOK in assassination is a tragedy.

At this point, I really hope the ramp-up of stats will bring combat back into the picture but this has to be an absolute low for the spec.
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90 Worgen Rogue
9730
Absolutely nothing, they nerfed our one advantage to the ground and replaced it with nothing
Edited by Fenrisulr on 3/19/2013 10:51 PM PDT
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100 Undead Rogue
12070
IMO, Combat is an absolute mess right now. It has no identity, no synergy, too much RNG, and suffers a fundamental flaw in it's mechanics (AR/SB -> energy/CP capping - especially if you deal with any latency issues). Lowering the Global through glyphs and set bonuses is not the right approach to fixing the spec's issues. I think they should scrap basically everything they've done with the spec over the last few years (that includes BF toggle-switch), with the exception of Restless Blades. There is a plethora of issues with the spec, I could go on and on but TLDR

I would recommend that you give Assassination a chance. IMO, Assassination is smooth and it's mechanics all play off of each other very well. To me, it feels more efficient than Combat in every way. Combat leaves too much DPS on the table. If the thought of playing with daggers is that hard for you to swallow, you might want to consider rolling a Warrior. They're far more powerful in any cleave situation and DW slow weaps in far more style than Combat Rogues do.

More disappointing to me is the fact that everyone is saying Combat will out-scale Assassination before long, forcing all of us that absolutely abhor the spec in it's current state to roll it. No thanks, I'd rather shove ice-picks under my toenails.
Edited by Shaølin on 3/19/2013 1:00 PM PDT
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
Combat really isn't competitive with assassination until you get T15 4pc, once you get T15 4pc combat is competitive again.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12195
I don't have 4 set, but set bonus' should not dictate my viability in raid, the very nature of the word "Set Bonus" it is meant to be a extra feature as you gear up.

I really hate this philosophy blizzard came up with about players being force to go cleave. All that has been achieved is instead of forcing every assassination rogue to go combat just make all the combat rogues switch instead, there is less of us anyways. And this scaling at the end of the expansion is garbage, why do I have to wait for the end of an expansion to be viable.

Blizz you can take your 5% AP Bonus back, your going to have to bring something out other than a band-aid to fix this problem. I haven't seen this much neglect for a spec in a long time.
Edited by Vizimir on 3/19/2013 3:17 PM PDT
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
I don't have 4 set, but set bonus' should not dictate my viability in raid
it doesn't, just increases your damage

you can still raid combat, you'll just do less damage than the other specs

If you are a rogue raiding heroics, you can play at least 2/3 specs well, yes? Pick up assassination or sub dude, playing one spec all the time is boring anyway, especially since combat is the least rogue-y spec
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91 Undead Rogue
8620
combat is the least rogue-y spec
Or most. Depending on your definition of Rogue.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
15720
Combat is fine, the only thing edging it out is Assassination's Execute. Once you get 4pc, it's pretty much even.
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100 Undead Rogue
9820
Combat without 4-piece is pretty crap. With 4-piece it's pretty good.

If you want to continue to live the dream and play combat then save your coins for tier bosses, and hope your guildies will pass you loot.
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90 Orc Rogue
16475
I've been passing combat weapons atm, cause I know i have !@#$ luck with tier pieces.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12195
I still feel like saying a spec is garbage b/c of a tier set bonus is unfair to the class. Like Shaolin comments the spec is a mess right now, the additional cleave of blade flurry was the only thing that was making combat rogue's competitive in DPS. Now the only times im using this cleave mechanic during a boss fight are:

1) Occasionally Horridon Add's - If the stars align and adds are stacked in the exact right way, thats if your not standing in a puddle of sand, goo, orb or totem.

2) Council - During that time when 3-4 of the council members are together. And really how often is that when Blanka is rolling all over the place, what is that 5-15 seconds of uptime on bladeflurry.

3) Tortos - Bat adds, while cleaving onto Tortos.

4) Ji'kun - If your on platform duty.

I can count on one hand the times that it will be a DPS increase to turn on blade flurry and in two of these instances (#1 & #2) your blade flurry will likely end up being a wash due to the limited time you will have 3 cleave targets+ with movement and range issues.

I really am stumped about the whole ability, warriors/hunters/locks/monks to name a few don't need to make a significant choice between switching from single target DPS to multi-target DPS and being concerned about a DPS loss, but combat rogues do?

The system is flawed, it was not fixed. We took a step backwards on our AOE overall.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12195
I was considering yesterday the overall melee dps and each type of aoe they have I am going to compile a list of each melee DPS. There AOE potential and what the potential gains/pitfalls of AOEing for each class has compared to single target DPS. I will report my findings so we can see how AOE mechanics works vs combat rogue's Blade Flurry.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6885
Combat will pull ahead because of all the Haste gear in this tier. Along with the 4set Combat will easily pull away from Sin due to scaling alone at the 522ilvl. Sub will be the best single target and maybe even AoE due to haste+HaT+Mastery being so high this tier.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
Combat will pull ahead because of all the Haste gear in this tier. Along with the 4set Combat will easily pull away from Sin due to scaling alone at the 522ilvl. Sub will be the best single target and maybe even AoE due to haste+HaT+Mastery being so high this tier.


I dunno that this is going to be true. Those last minute buffs to assas where pretty massive and if you look at the rogues in top guilds around that ilvl almost all are playing assass, many forgoing higher ilvl combat weapons to do so.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12195
As an indicator im waiting for this to happen even against assassination rogue's, the fact is I am between 10-20k behind my rogue partner. Granted he has x2 522 weapons. I am lagging behind and this is not due to execution of spec.

That is not to mention other classes, I struggle to keep pace with warlocks, hunters and enhancement shamens. Take this into consideration I pulled between 30-40K less dps than my enhancement shamen counterpart on a bulk of the fights in ToT, with similar Ilvl and gear. Also at the beginning of the fight I can spike between 225-325k DPS, an enhancement shammy can spike 400-500k+ dps. I know we are talking different classes but I feel like I just have no way to put the numbers up to get within the top 5 DPS positions in our 25man raid.

Im not saying that combat needs to be buffed because I occasionally cannot get top 5 DPS, I am saying I just don't have the resouces period to project myself into that position. This is not a stats weight problem. This is a pure spec problem, combat is just not pushing those numbers out at this moment and I am skeptic about a 4 set making up this large disparity considering every class is getting set bonus' also.
Edited by Vizimir on 3/21/2013 7:47 AM PDT
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100 Human Rogue
11320
Im not saying that combat needs to be buffed because I occasionally cannot get top 5 DPS, I am saying I just don't have the resouces period to project myself into that position. This is not a stats weight problem. This is a pure spec problem, combat is just not pushing those numbers out at this moment and I am skeptic about a 4 set making up this large disparity considering every class is getting set bonus' also.


I think the reality of the situation was that combat is not under powered but assass is probably over powered. To me it seems like they realized the 4pc bonus was going to be much stronger for combat than assass and instead of coming up with a 4pc that makes more sense they decided to buff assassination outright at the last minute and in my opinion they probably went too far. Remember, the last set of assass buffs went in the night before the patch went live and thus where not tested at all in a raid environment. With the 4pc bonus I do suspect combat will be one of the better DPS specs across all classes and specs, I do not however expect to see it pass assass.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12195
I was considering yesterday the overall melee dps and each type of aoe they have I am going to compile a list of each melee DPS. There AOE potential and what the potential gains/pitfalls of AOEing for each class has compared to single target DPS. I will report my findings so we can see how AOE mechanics works vs combat rogue's Blade Flurry.


I have compiled my finding and will be posting as I sort everything around. As a disclaimer I am not an expert in each class I am talking about so any additional information would be very helpful along the way during this comparison:

Warriors

1) Sweeping Strikes - The equivalent of a rogue's old bladeflurry with one exception, a 10 second duration and 10 second cooldown.

2) Thunderclap - Hits all targets w/in 8 yards, applies deep wounds damaging dot.

3) Cleave - An single attack that acts similar to the old bladeflurry that deals damage to 1 additional target for % based on type of weapon used.

4) Whirlwind - A cleave attacked that deals 85% weapon damage to all targets within 8 yrds for 8 seconds.

5) Bladestorm (Talent) - 1.5 min cd, 8 yard range cleave for 120% weapon dmg every 1sec for 6 sec.

Warrior Cleave Summary - I would put warriors high on ability to cleave with a host of options to deal damage to multiple targets from as low as 2 targets to as many as unlimited. While some abilities require them to make a choice on rage spending all abilities have good range and no resource limitation. Some of the abilties deal less damage due to the nature of the attack, however on average this is a 15-18% reduction to overall damage delt based on the tooltips.

Druids - Feral

1) Swipe -

2) Thrash -

Feral Druid Cleave Summary -
Edited by Vizimir on 3/22/2013 7:55 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12195
**Reserved**
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100 Troll Rogue
18510
Combat isn't bad in and of itself. The problem is that it's balanced around the 4-set, which is absurdly strong for the spec. So while combat got buffed in 5.2, other classes/specs (for example, assassination), got buffed MORE, leaving combat behind if you are low on the totem pole in your raid group's loot priority or just have bad RNG (I never got my T14 4-piece until 1 week before 5.2).

Combat is my favorite spec, but the gameplay issues surrounding its energy regeneration have gotten WAY out of hand since cataclysm. IMO, the problem lies in adrenaline rush, it gives too much energy and not enough attack speed, making the energy regeneration part of it very difficult to get the most out of, and in any situation where energy is irrelevant (flying on alysrazor, sinestra, for example), it turns it into a 20% attack speed cooldown, which is nearly useless.

My solution would be to just make adrenaline rush true haste (which will provide secondary boosts to combat in light of RPPM), but reduce the haste amount to balance it out. Maybe 30-40% true haste. Other things I'd like to see are ambidexterity nerfed and revealing strike buffed (both finisher effectiveness AND bonus combo points to sinister strike, would prefer the combo point bonus).

TL;DR: Combat is not unviable. It just doesn't compete with other options since assassination is more well-rounded.
Edited by Shadowvenom on 3/22/2013 7:50 AM PDT
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