dont vote kick ret healers....

90 Human Paladin
12900
I think you are greatly overstating the difficulty of 5 mans.
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90 Human Paladin
10090
I think you are greatly overstating the difficulty of 5 mans.


I think you're downplaying them. I'm talking about instances where the average person is operating under an ilevel 463 and attempting to gear up. You're operating at an ilevel of 480+ and are finding it pretty easy. I'm glad that you've progressed to cakewalk difficulty on this one character of yours. Y'know who hasn't?

The ilevel 450 Ret Paladin following in your footsteps that keeps wiping everyone.

The queue doesn't differentiate between new 90's gearing up and old 90's who're just Valor-capping the long way.
Edited by Roahin on 3/20/2013 9:22 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9970
03/20/2013 08:50 PMPosted by Roahin
How does that negate the advantages of having a properly played ret healer?

Is that a serious question?

Yes.

You can be Holy with dual spec, sure. You can also be Ret. If you can't actually manage to heal effectively as Ret, don't. I think everyone is in agreement on this. But the thing is, a lot of the time, you can heal effectively as Ret. And doing so is a) wonderfully efficient, since high DPS tends to make runs go quickly and smoothly, and b) possibly the most fun thing I have ever done in this game.

I'm not claiming that Ret-healing has no disadvantages. It definitely does. I can discuss them in considerable detail; I know them firsthand. I also know, firsthand, that none of them are particularly difficult to work around. And I also know, firsthand, that the advantages are nontrivial.

Healing dungeons with a DPS spec is literally as old as WoW itself. Ret paladins, feral druids, enhancement shamans, etc did it from classic onward. All that's changed is that we do it in our DPS gear now.
03/20/2013 09:21 PMPosted by Roahin
The ilevel 450 Ret Paladin following in your footsteps that keeps wiping everyone.

...should not be doing that. Again, I think we are all in agreement on this.
Edited by Ravicana on 3/20/2013 9:27 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
12900
I'd go so far as to say even a mediocre geared ret paladin healing, wouldn't have much trouble if the tank was, say, a paladin tank. I can get by without external heals in a 5 man for the most part, and can toss out pretty decent heals to the rest of the group. The "healer" only needs to be there for spot healing, helping heal people up from aoes, and cleaning up mistakes.

It's really quite rare to ever finish a heroic without being well above the healer on healing. Often when I heal a heroic on my holy paladin, I spend most of my time spamming denounce because nobody even needs me...especially the tanks.
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90 Human Paladin
10480
most comments after the successful completions of ret healed dungeons go something like this

1) fastest dungeon ive ever been in
2) awesome group
3) nerf ret

the advantages speak for themselves

ret can dispel now and not one debuff ive seen in heroics has wiping potential (ive successfully ret healed them all)

if you que healer and you do your role effectively you should not be kicked, period.

wait for the bads to wipe then kick them. don't just kick cause you don't like the idea of ret heals.
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90 Human Paladin
10090
All the endorsements I'm seeing for Ret healers are from people with high enough item levels and paladin experience to be good at it. What you're all failing to grasp is that you're the exception here.

"Why can't people blindly accept that I am good enough to do it at the beginning of the dungeon without knowing anything about me or my playstyle?!"

Sometimes hybrid DPS get past me as a healer without me noticing because they do a good enough job that I never stopped and glanced at their profile to realize that the Shaman was Elemental or the Druid was Balance. The Retribution is immediately obvious with both his Mana and his playstyle (a bastardized Fistweaver sort).

In closing, I'd rather not chance the multiple wipes on every single playthrough with queue-avoiding role liars to find the exceptions who can provide sufficient heals while still maintaining good DPS. The LFD are a painful grind in the first place without playing roulette with people trying to break their specs and force developer nerfs.
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90 Human Paladin
7315
I am sorry for the silly question, but how is faster to complete the dungeon with a ret healing vs a regular healer?
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90 Human Paladin
9970
In closing, I'd rather not chance the multiple wipes on every single playthrough with queue-avoiding role liars to find the exceptions who can provide sufficient heals while still maintaining good DPS. The LFD are a painful grind in the first place without playing roulette with people trying to break their specs and force developer nerfs.

So... you'd rather ONLY get queue-avoiding liars, rather than sometimes getting queue-avoiding liars and sometimes people that can actually pull it off?

*puzzled*

I can do it. I know I can do it. I know that because I waited until I was geared out before I started doing it, and then I tried it with a group of friends first to make sure I could do it and get some practice. And when I tell somebody about it, I make sure to tell them the same thing: there's less room for error, it requires better gear, etc.

I have no authority, not even by example, to stop bad players from queuing.
I am sorry for the silly question, but how is faster to complete the dungeon with a ret healing vs a regular healer?

Ret does significant DPS while healing, whereas normal healing specs do little or none. More DPS means faster kills means faster runs.
If you're instead asking HOW MUCH faster - significantly. As in, "I didn't know it was possible to kill [boss] before he does [fight mechanic]" fast.
Edited by Ravicana on 3/21/2013 12:41 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7315
Ret does significant DPS while healing, whereas normal healing specs do little or none. More DPS means faster kills means faster runs.
If you're instead asking HOW MUCH faster - significantly. As in, "I didn't know it was possible to kill [boss] before he does [fight mechanic]" fast.


True, but did anyone of you thought that a tank with a "regular" healer can pull all the trash up to and (in some cases including the boss) while with a ret the pulls must be significantly slower?

In a boss fight for sure a ret healing would made the fight lol, but the biggest part of the dungeons aren't the 3-4 bosses rather than the trash.

I would take a regular healer any day over a ret off healing, just because of the mass pulls / aoe. Everything just dies faster if a tank can mass pull.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Healing the tank is almost never the hard part of ret-healing, and Battle Healer triggers from HotR. Having a ret healer doesn't prevent you from doing big pulls.
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90 Human Paladin
4075
/kick
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17825
Players who can't think outside the box deserve whatever trouble they get.


Why think outside the box when you can smash it?

03/21/2013 12:44 AMPosted by Meanor
True, but did anyone of you thought that a tank with a "regular" healer can pull all the trash up to and (in some cases including the boss) while with a ret the pulls must be significantly slower?


A geared tank, you mean. Because, if a newb tank tries to Superman an instance, I let him die no matter what spec I am. The only tanks I let get away stuff like that are monks, and you can tell a good monk from a bad monk within a couple pulls.

Ret-healer pulls are not slower. You are reaching.

a ret off healing


Wrong again, the Ret is healing though DPS. This isn't PVP. This is focused on healing and support while doing respectable DPS. Difference between Holy and Ret for healing are small. The only thing that comes to mind is no real healing when there are no mobs to attack. But where's the danger? If you can't top yourself off after, let's say, a boss fight.. that seems more your problem than mine.

Meh, I don't Ret-heal PuGs anymore. PuGs on average are HORRIBLE. In guild groups, I couldn't go Holy if I wanted to.

b) possibly the most fun thing I have ever done in this game.


Honestly, it feels like the most Paladin-y thing I've done in this game so far. None of that 'Holy Warrior' garbage. None of that finger waving in the back. Using the Light to both smite my foes and bolster allies. Top of the mountain, really.
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90 Human Paladin
10480
Just Ret healed LFR Jinrokh. 43K Hps 3rd on meter. 99K Dps 4th on meter. Successful attempt. I was discovered shortly thereafter and vote kicked. :)
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90 Human Paladin
12900
03/21/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Vlada
The only tanks I let get away stuff like that are monks, and you can tell a good monk from a bad monk within a couple pulls.


I dunno, even in my LFR gear I never seem to be able to pull enough trash that I feel threatened. I just chain pull as fast as I can, and watch as the priest does as much dps as the dps.

I haven't had a ret healer yet, but I hope to. I think it would make for an easy run.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/21/2013 5:18 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
6725
I off-heal all the time. I prevent wipes 99% of the time. Its a hybrid class thats ment to be played that way. I say if you can make it work then work it hard! Screw all the nay-sayers. They prob haven't played a paladin for 8 years so !@#$.
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90 Human Paladin
0
Or you could actually go heals and not waste our time.


Don't you mean stay ret healer and save you time?

Holy doesnt contribute dps.

So by what your worried about, you dont want a healing spec to heal. Takes longer, wastes time...
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90 Tauren Paladin
7295
I am of the attitude that everyone gets at least one chance to "get it right".

Ret healing sounds like a lot of fun, and I give kudos to those who make it work. This is a game, and if you find an effective way to play it and have more fun then you would playing the "traditional" way, do it!

Those folks who have a need to be in control and demand vote kicks when others dont play the game according to their rules? Why are they even doing lfd/lfr in the first place? Shouldnt they be running with their circle of friends or raid team?

I remember being kicked from lfr because i was specced prot, filling a dps spot. I wanted to tank, needed gear. I assume they would have kicked me for being a bad/undergeared tank too. Some people...
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90 Human Paladin
10090
You're already taking a chance at multiple wipes with bad healers and stupid DPS. Ultimately LFD is terrible because pugs are terrible. 95% of the playerbase is legitimately just awful.


I agree to an extent. A good Retribution Paladin can heal. You don't need to be great, but have a pretty good working understanding of how your class works. The appropriate glyphs, seals and when to use/not to use Selfless Healer procs. A bad Ret won't make it happen. Conversely, a bad Holy Paladin can still Forrest Gump his way through a dungeon without wiping anyone.

So, I go into a LFD assuming the other players are garbage because you're quite right- most of them are. And a garbage Ret can't heal. A garbage Holy may not be able to heal either, but he's got a significantly better chance of getting it done than a garbage Ret.

The issue with the posters in this forum is that most players are fairly well seasoned and can get the job done. But for some strange reason you all have this sense of camaraderie with all the other role queue-circumventers out there. That the pervading sense of impatience everyone has for the staggering number of incompetent players trying to avoid the queue times without the capacity to even fulfill the role they signed up for must somehow target you specifically.

[EDIT]: Adjusted a censored word that I can't figure out why the board would have censored.
Edited by Roahin on 3/22/2013 12:54 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
6885
All the naysayers are a bunch of jealous control freaks who either lack the skill to do this, or think it's "unfair" so I wont let you do it.
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