dont vote kick ret healers....

90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
You could pull it off with blues from the heroics themselves, as long as you and your group are performing well. Not perfect, but at least playing smart. Like people are saying, this has been done in CMs. At that ilvl, you don't want to leave it to chance with a PuG and I'd recommend a group of friends/guildies.

At ilvl 500 you could faceroll and still do well, unless you have no clue WTF you are doing. Of course, at that point, the problem isn't gear or spec ;x
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90 Human Paladin
10090
There are plenty of hypocrites in this thread, my friend, and I'm not one of them.


Yes, you are.

04/05/2013 01:07 AMPosted by Vlada
You really haven't said anything here, much less why I'm a hypocrite, unless you count assumptions that are wrong.


You've stated numerous times that we shouldn't have preconceived notions of what a Ret healer is capable of and give them a chance. That doesn't work that way. If I don't assume he can or can't do the job, the only thing that's left is that he's not queuing for the role he was designed for. In which case, he should be removed. No, you're demanding people give them ALL chances blindly in a double-standard of hypocrisy. Make no assumptions about random people you queue with beyond the assumptions you want us to make.

This thread comes down to: "I'll put up with a crappy healer for a bit, but if a get a Ret as a healer, I kick them asap!"


I will put up with a crappy healer. I have less an issue informing a healer when he needs to dispel a lethal debuff, or informing a junky tank where to stack the enemies at, or random DPS what mechanics to focus on than trying to limp along with someone who's equally bad but doing so deliberately because he tried to queue-jump as a role-liar. I help bad tanks and healers and feel like they'll do better in other dungeons and rerunning this one. I don't help cheaters and line jumpers because they're not supposed to be there in that role in the first place. My obligation to assist ends the moment you abuse the system.

But I'm the hypocrite because I think that line of thinking is retarded. Gotcha.


You're free to think that my unwillingness to let you bypass the system as intended and exploit mechanics to get our recent healing buffs nerfed back to 5.1 is as retarded as you like. Just as I'm free to boot you when I see you in my random as a healer in your Ret skin.
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100 Draenei Paladin
17330
By the Light guys stop feeding this guy, he obviously isn't going to get out of his little self righteous bubble.

Let the thread die.
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90 Human Paladin
10090
It's a shame that following the rules and playing the game as intended makes you self-righteous. =/ I feel like an old argument on another forum where I said pirating movies was wrong and everyone had ten thousand reasons why what they were doing wasn't immoral and wrong.

No one has as many justifications for doing something wrong as the people actually doing it.
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100 Draenei Paladin
17330
You are equating people pirating movies to hybrids Healing or Tanking Mists Heroics in their DPS specs.

You are ridiculous and certainly self righteous and simply trying to play the tragic good guy.

Mists Heroics can be soloed by some classes, getting angry because someone does something outside your comfort box and shouting about "THE RULES!!!" is silly.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
You like to use strong words that don't actually convey what others are saying. What's the point of me demanding anything when the choice is up to those either clicking 'YES' or 'NO' when the kick window comes up?

If you choose to play the game by making assumptions on a person you haven't seen perform yet, that's your call. But to talk about 'abusing the system' and (this one made me straight laugh the !@#$ out loud) 'bypass the system as intended and exploit mechanics to get our recent healing buffs nerfed' is funny. By all means, keep standing tall during the fight against all these evil people cheating the game at you and your group's expense.

Do you really think that kicking a Ret healer is going to save us nerfs? Do you think Blizzard cares enough about what a few specs can do in trivial content to nerf us? Wasn't there a blue post somewhere saying they were planning on buffing battle healing? I'll have to dig around for that! And let's say they do nerf, it won't affect you will it? You don't battle heal as a Ret, so... Are you really that paranoid?

Again, since you don't seem to pick up on this. You should give everyone you do LFD with a chance. I don't see a hybrid healer that can do the job it queued for as an exception. I'm not specifically saying only give the Ret healers a chance. I would advise giving them a chance like you do everyone else. Isn't the actual double standard to not do so? Or is 'English is my second language' showing again?

Dude, come on. I'm not even going to tell you to "chill, cause it's a game". I don't like having my time wasted either, so I understand to a point what you saying. But, again, my point is that you don't have a clue at all about any of the people you popped into LFD with. But you single out the hybrid immediately because it bothers you on a personal level. You stopped making it fun and became the LFD police. But that is your right, isn't it?

Just as I'm free to boot you when I see you in my random as a healer in your Ret skin.


You totally are. I agree 100%. What's the problem? What the point of contention? That you simply don't like people Ret healing? Oh no, that's right.. they are PURPOSELY EXPLOITING. No. All of the Rets that do this are not cheating you or the game. I'll give you that some probably are (tbh the last time I saw someone actually cheating the queue was in SFK at lvl 20), but to assume that they all are is foolish. And if you actually thought about anything I said, without getting personally invested, you might finally understand what I'm saying. Or keep assuming things, whatever floats your boat.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
By the Light guys stop feeding this guy


Aww... but I'm lonely T-T
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90 Human Paladin
10090
You are equating people pirating movies to hybrids Healing or Tanking Mists Heroics in their DPS specs.


Oh, excuse me. I was employing a literary device I can see you're clearly not familiar with. It's called an "analogy". It's where you compare two different things with a similar characteristic to help articulate your point. In this case, it was circumvention. Circumventing retail providers or queue times. All caught up?

You are ridiculous and certainly self righteous and simply trying to play the tragic good guy.


It's funny. I didn't think claiming that I'd boot someone for cheating the system made me either good or bad, it's just something I do. The fact that you seem to equate that with being good says a lot more about whether you believe your actions are right or wrong than anything I've said.

Mists Heroics can be soloed by some classes, getting angry because someone does something outside your comfort box and shouting about "THE RULES!!!" is silly.


I'm not angry, though you're certainly coming across as quite furious. I would characterize my stance as... tired. I'm tired of people who can't play their classes. I'm tired of people who don't read the party chats and play the mechanics wrong over and over. I'm tired of people ninjaing gear. I'm tired of people trolling the randoms.

These are all things that I accept as realities of using the LFD. However, people deliberately circumventing queues and showing up wrong-spec'd? I'm under no obligation to give them a chance. A Warlock can easily tank heroics but can't queue for the Tanking role. In this situation, you're just enjoying the exploit of having a spec in your class meant for healing and then DPSing through it. With all the crap of random queuing that I put up with for the convenience of not needing to get four other guys together, that's one issue I have no compunctions about booting guiltlessly for it.
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90 Human Paladin
10090
You like to use strong words that don't actually convey what others are saying. What's the point of me demanding anything when the choice is up to those either clicking 'YES' or 'NO' when the kick window comes up?


I'm not demanding anything. The thread was made by people in your camp making demands. I mean, the name of the thread is "don't vote kick ret healers". I explained mine and evidently the larger portion of the player base's reservations with what you're all doing. I didn't say you have to do likewise.

04/05/2013 02:17 AMPosted by Vlada
If you choose to play the game by making assumptions on a person you haven't seen perform yet, that's your call. But to talk about 'abusing the system' and (this one made me straight laugh the !@#$ out loud) 'bypass the system as intended and exploit mechanics to get our recent healing buffs nerfed' is funny. By all means, keep standing tall during the fight against all these evil people cheating the game at you and your group's expense.


Refer to my point above. A Hunter can't queue healer, a Warlock can't queue Tank, et cetera. Some of these people may competently fill other roles, or even eliminate the need for a role altogether. They can't do that with the random system. The random system is a rigidly for three DPS, a healer and a tank. You can only queue as a healer without intending to heal because your class has a healing spec. You know you're not supposed to be queuing as a healer if you're not Holy, regardless of whether you can muddle through and accomplish the dungeon or not.

And if you really don't believe that Retribution Paladins spamming randoms as healers won't see our heals being re-nerfed, go research the LFR with all Rets and what happened to our heals shortly thereafter.

Do you really think that kicking a Ret healer is going to save us nerfs? Do you think Blizzard cares enough about what a few specs can do in trivial content to nerf us? Wasn't there a blue post somewhere saying they were planning on buffing battle healing? I'll have to dig around for that! And let's say they do nerf, it won't affect you will it? You don't battle heal as a Ret, so... Are you really that paranoid?


Let's say it doesn't. Did it HELP our heals to advertise their extreme potency? No. Now, let's say it does? This is a situation of nothing to gain but plenty to lose in the gamble. And actually... I did mention previously that I -DO- battle heal as Retribution. I just don't queue for randoms that way. I battle heal with folks I know, I don't expect four random strangers to just accept that I can perform a role that I'm not spec'd for.

Again, since you don't seem to pick up on this. You should give everyone you do LFD with a chance. I don't see a hybrid healer that can do the job it queued for as an exception. I'm not specifically saying only give the Ret healers a chance. I would advise giving them a chance like you do everyone else. Isn't the actual double standard to not do so? Or is 'English is my second language' showing again?


I do give them a chance. They're given approximately until I say "You're still in your Ret spec" to get to Holy before the boot is initiated. That's my benefit of the doubt.

Dude, come on. I'm not even going to tell you to "chill, cause it's a game". I don't like having my time wasted either, so I understand to a point what you saying. But, again, my point is that you don't have a clue at all about any of the people you popped into LFD with. But you single out the hybrid immediately because it bothers you on a personal level. You stopped making it fun and became the LFD police. But that is your right, isn't it?


It doesn't bother me on a personal level. Just like when some podunk Hunter doesn't turn Taunt off when I'm tanking. It's an irritant, but not something that ever crosses my mind again five seconds after they're booted. And while I can appreciate your point that EVERYONE should be given a chance to do anything they want to do at any time, I'm going to have to disagree. The random system is full of pains in my posterior as it is without me having to deal with that. People are entitled to be bad at LFD until they get better. People are not entitled to circumvent queue wait times because their class sports a spec they don't intend to use.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
04/05/2013 03:25 AMPosted by Roahin
I'm not demanding anything. The thread was made by people in your camp making demands. I mean, the name of the thread is "don't vote kick ret healers". I explained mine and evidently the larger portion of the player base's reservations with what you're all doing. I didn't say you have to do likewise.


What you quoted, which caused this quote here ^, was that you said I was demanding things. I never said you demanded anything ;o Let's at least keep this based on what we actually said.

04/05/2013 03:25 AMPosted by Roahin
You can only queue as a healer without intending to heal because your class has a healing spec.


Look... I can't speak for every Ret that queues, but I can speak for myself. If I Ret heal in a 5 man, I'm there to heal. That's priority #1. Because of gear or skill or that chicken I sacrificed beforehand, I am able to not only do the healer's job (and well, mind you), but I can also make up for the people who are somehow still pulling 20k DPS at level 90. You say you've done it, I assume well, so I'm sure you know it's possible to not drag your group down at all. I may not be able to accept your opinion as anything more than words, but I would appreciate you not lumping me in with those that neither have the intent on doing the job nor that can actually do the job. Obviously, we don't make green number with good intentions.

You can continue thinking that I exploit the system, but that's like saying that a rogue who rolled need on a str tank ring is ninja looting. Does it suck when things go bad? Of course. Does that make that person a cheater? No. Why? Cause Blizz doesn't care. Why? Because it is NOT an exploit. Your personal opinion does not reflect how Blizzard handles its game.

04/05/2013 03:25 AMPosted by Roahin
I do give them a chance. They're given approximately until I say "You're still in your Ret spec" to get to Holy before the boot is initiated. That's my benefit of the doubt.


False. You aren't giving them a chance to prove themselves, just a chance to play how you want them to before you boot them. That's fact.

But, as we both agree upon, how you handle a Ret healer is your call. And that's it really, Ret healer... not a Ret riding in a healer queue. There's actually a difference, and you know it.

04/05/2013 03:12 AMPosted by Roahin
I would characterize my stance as... tired.


You aren't alone. We're all tired.

Anyway, agree to disagree. Simple as that.
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90 Human Paladin
10090
Eh, too tired to argue the point anymore with you. The fact is that you're not supposed to use the system as you are. Warlocks, Mages, Hunters, Death Knights... anyone without a healing spec cannot queue heals, regardless of their capability to heal. The only reason you can is because the game mistakenly believes that's what you intend. I'm glad the vast majority of you are enjoying your circumvention of the system for randoms. I won't tolerate the blatant misuse and queue jumping, as my patience with the Looking For systems is quite short in the first place.

And eventually when you have to be in the spec to queue for the role, and once entering the dungeon are locked into the spec like Battlegrounds, we'll all know what prompted the change.
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70 Human Death Knight
535
I personally love it when I find a Ret healer, or a Spriest healer.

If the tank is geared enough to only need off heals it makes the entire run faster.

Keep up the good work Ret tanks +1
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
5 mans are humorously fast with a dedicated healer in healer spec. Why risk a vote-kick for those 2 minutes you'll shave off an already silly completion time?
Edited by Luvbacon on 4/6/2013 10:47 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
Also, threads like these will eventually get ret healing nerfed. FYI
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
Ya, cause Blizz has no idea that we've been doing this for at least 2 patches now. And why does anyone ever take a chance? Take your pick of reasons.

And eventually when you have to be in the spec to queue for the role, and once entering the dungeon are locked into the spec like Battlegrounds, we'll all know what prompted the change.


You're reaching. BGs are not LFD. Apples are not oranges. Maybe when you can start vote kicking in BGs, then you can start up the paranoia machine.

IF that ever happens, what's the point of dual spec? So we can change spec in town? No, that won't happen.

Seriously, this is a case of First World Problems.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20200
Also, threads like these will eventually get ret healing nerfed. FYI


If hybrids being the healer for challenge modes being a normal thing hasn't gotten our healing nerfed (buffed in 5.2!) then what makes you think a random thread is going to do it?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
04/06/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Cayse
Also, threads like these will eventually get ret healing nerfed. FYI


If hybrids being the healer for challenge modes being a normal thing hasn't gotten our healing nerfed (buffed in 5.2!) then what makes you think a random thread is going to do it?


Reasons! Duh!
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90 Human Paladin
10090
You're reaching. BGs are not LFD. Apples are not oranges. Maybe when you can start vote kicking in BGs, then you can start up the paranoia machine.


You know that they're going to be imposing queue roles into Battlegrounds soon, yes? Making them virtually the same as Dungeons. Also, you can vote-kick in Battlegrounds. Enough people report someone Away (roughly the same number proportionately to vote kick in Dungeons) and they're removed from the Battleground.

04/06/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Vlada
IF that ever happens, what's the point of dual spec? So we can change spec in town? No, that won't happen.


...if you really can't see the purpose of dual-spec beyond it's ability to fraud the role selector and queue then I'm at a loss at how to speak to you.

Also, threads like these will eventually get ret healing nerfed. FYI

If hybrids being the healer for challenge modes being a normal thing hasn't gotten our healing nerfed (buffed in 5.2!) then what makes you think a random thread is going to do it?

5.0 Retribution Paladins were flaunting their overpowered heals. 5.1 they get severely and totally nerfed into the ground to a point of near uselessness that causes unparalleled Ret whining on the forums (and we're a group of pretty prolific whiners in the first place, see: Any other thread). 5.2 Sees Retribution Paladins getting another substantial boost in healing, wherein all the whiners immediately begin flaunting their abuse of the system with their OP heals, never imagining they could be nerfed for it.

The cycle repeats.
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100 Human Paladin
15015
I just amuse myself by trying to outdps the dps while in holy spec. There's usually at least one I can beat, sometimes two. There's different ways to make ourselves feel like we're contributing, because if we're honest, healing doesn't take nearly the skill or concentration it did years ago.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
04/06/2013 05:35 AMPosted by Roahin
Eh, too tired to argue the point anymore with you.


And yet here we are, again. You are really bad at not arguing anymore.

You know that they're going to be imposing queue roles into Battlegrounds soon, yes? Making them virtually the same as Dungeons. Also, you can vote-kick in Battlegrounds. Enough people report someone Away (roughly the same number proportionately to vote kick in Dungeons) and they're removed from the Battleground.


I did not, I also don't care. They aren't dungeons. They never will be like dungeons. There's a queue at the DMV, is that a dungeon now? (actually nevermind, it kind of is) If someone reports you afk, you get a prompt telling you that you've been reported afk. Guess what? Start killing someone. You don't get prompts in LFD, you just get a loading screen. BGs are actually more lenient. They've also been around longer than LFD. Reporting someone who is away works when they are away, otherwise you're actually exploiting a game function... see what I did there?

Here, this is what a fact looks like~
https://sea.battle.net/support/en/article/battleground-non-participation-account-action

"All reports will be thoroughly investigated and corrective action will only be taken if the violation is confirmed. When sufficient numbers of reports are filed within a specific match the reported player receives a debuff. Some type of PvP activity must be generated within a short timer or that player is removed from that match. If not enough reports are received during a given match, or if a player manages to remove them through automation, these reports are still recorded. It's important to report nonparticipation even if the player is not immediately removed."

I'm at a loss at how to speak to you.


You took obvious sarcasm as seriousness again, but now you know how I feel when you throw around words like hypocrite and exploit and make !@#$ up to try and prove a point. You sound like Invincible. Interpret that as you will.

5.0 Retribution Paladins were flaunting their overpowered heals. 5.1 they get severely and totally nerfed into the ground to a point of near uselessness that causes unparalleled Ret whining on the forums (and we're a group of pretty prolific whiners in the first place, see: Any other thread). 5.2 Sees Retribution Paladins getting another substantial boost in healing, wherein all the whiners immediately begin flaunting their abuse of the system with their OP heals, never imagining they could be nerfed for it.


First of all, the way you sensationalize this is ridiculous. Please provide actual facts. Show me a post that says anything other than "We have taken a look at hybrid healing, and/or healing in general, and felt it was too high." Show me the "Ret paladins are ruining the spirit of the game" post, the "Hybrids are cheating the system, so now we're punishing all of you" thread, please show me "Due to flaunting, we've decided to teach you a lesson" blog. And flaunting? You mean using the abilities that Blizz over-tuned or were just too powerful in PVP. Isn't that called balancing when they nerf what they thought was OP? And they got buffed recently, despite all the dirty Ret healing going on in LFD (imagine that!). How is that possible?

Could it be that they are unrelated? Could it be that you actually don't have any real point other than you are tired of PuGs, so you keep grasping at PVP, LFR, exploiting, and 'if pures can't do it, neither should hybrid'. On one hand, yay... Finally, equality for hybrids. On the other, wat?

The thread is about healing 5 mans as Ret. That's what this thread is about: 5 man healing as a Ret paladin. Not speculations based on more wild speculation. Not a witch hunt for the Boogie Man. You made this thread into something different than what its intent was.

I'd say you aren't being constructive.

Seriously, here's the TL;DR: "Hey please don't kick Ret healers, we can heal just fine" > Discussion on how it's done > no you can't > yes we can > double standards > exploiting and ruining the game > misinformation.

The cycle repeats.


Yup, the cycle of a Paladin whining seems to repeat itself every time you post. You really don't belong in this conversation. You don't like it, which is fine, so don't do it or endorse it or fuel the flames. The end. Stop insisting that what was being discussed here is somehow related to or responsible for any/all bad that happens to our class or the game. Being a overdramatic, really.

I'm done with you, I don't think you have much of a clue as to what you are talking about. I'm sure if I go and Google more of your claims, they'll come back bunk.. like vote kicking in BGs. But you'll make sure the cycle repeats, won't you?

I'm actually going to ignore you now. We've played Special Olympics with each other quite enough. You lack the trainwreck appeal of the other misinformation spewing posters here. And for the record, I apologize for my tone with you, but having a logical conversation with you is not possible.
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