@Todays Hotfixes

90 Tauren Druid
16650
Hey all,

Lead encounter designer Ion Hazzikostas (Watcher) has been reading through a lot of your feedback regarding the [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693/"]raid boss hotfixes[/url], and he passed along the following response to this thread:

I just wanted to offer some context for the recent tuning hotfixes to the Horridon and Council of Elders encounters in the Throne of Thunder raid.

First off, the Council change, reducing their health in 10-player modes, was honestly just a bug fix. Yes, it made the encounter easier, which also makes it a nerf, but we simply goofed on the numbers. We generally aim for a 3:1 ratio of health for enemies in 25-player raids as compared to 10-player mode, since 25-player raids typically have ~17 DPS and 10-player raids have 5 or 6. Instead, the ratio on the bosses themselves (but not the Loa spirits or Sand Elementals) was mistakenly 2.5:1, and we didn’t notice until we started taking a closer look at why 10-player groups seemed to be having a harder time with the encounter. I apologize for the error on our part.

Second, regarding Horridon, that change was an intentional difficulty adjustment, with the aim of smoothing out the difficulty curve of the first section of the raid. By reducing the health of the trolls pouring out of each gate, we reduced the DPS requirement (and thus the gear requirement) of the encounter, but generally kept the mechanics checks intact. The trolls having 10-15% less health doesn’t mean that raids can suddenly fail to interrupt Venom Priests, ignore Effusions, stand in Sand Traps, or cuddle up with Frozen Orbs. It just means that there’s a lower DPS requirement to keep up with the waves while doing so.


I am curious what he has to say about people needing to bring 4 healers for 10 man Megaera right now, and 25 man guilds having absolutely no trouble with the fight whatsoever.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
why they introduce mechanics that are comp dependant, is beyond me. bring the player...heh. no.


Bring the player not the class is by far the most misunderstood statement of all time.

What it does mean: You can have blood lust even if you don't have a shaman in your group.

What it does NOT mean: You can bring 6 druids and 4 paladins (or insert equally backwards comp here) and still expect to have the same success as a group that is assembled correctly.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10705
After my guild struggled on Horridon last week I read every thread I could find on the fight in the hopes of getting better for this week. One thing that kept popping up over and over again was that raids with higher dps (whether from gear, skill, or both) were having a significantly easier time. Other people that were apparently surviving the mechanics were being overwhelmed by adds when they couldn't kill them fast enough (even focus firing the dangerous ones first). They said before the tier was released that groups that can beat the mechanics on normal shouldn't be running into hard dps checks, and that's what Horridon adds were turning into.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10705
Bring the player not the class is by far the most misunderstood statement of all time.

What it does mean: You can have blood lust even if you don't have a shaman in your group.

What it does NOT mean: You can bring 6 druids and 4 paladins (or insert equally backwards comp here) and still expect to have the same success as a group that is assembled correctly.

True, but on the other hand when was the last time they made a fight dependent on being able to dispel diseases (not trolling, I actually can't remember)? If it's as far back as I'm thinking, then no disease dispels doesn't seem like such a backwards comp.
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90 Pandaren Priest
15135
It's almost as if the first couple bosses on normal weren't supposed to take you 3 nights.

It's almost as if these nerfs were addressed to you, the people who took all week to down it.

It's almost as if they want you in heroics sometime in the next 2 months.

It's almost as if you are whining about whiners.

It's a legitimate gripe though.
WTF is the Monday nerf going to accomplish that can't wait until Tuesday?
What about the groups that were feeling good about pushing through bosses that were known to be hard?

I didn't kill Horridon. But we were getting to the third door spotlessly enough that success was in reach, a bit more practice would do the trick. And that's with reaching 16/16N late in tier14, so ilvls around 496-500.

I kinda see that allowing players to gear up with more farmable T15 bosses helps to keep progression flowing, but this is too soon. Let players bash their head against these bosses a little longer, allow some improvement to take place, then nerf it after 3 or 4 weeks. There's 6 months of this tier to look forward to, making the first 1/3 of it a faceroll doesn't sound like good pacing.
Edited by Breathkeeper on 3/12/2013 8:49 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19290
True, but on the other hand when was the last time they made a fight dependent on being able to dispel diseases (not trolling, I actually can't remember)? If it's as far back as I'm thinking, then no disease dispels doesn't seem like such a backwards comp.


Think it was Lich King.

Edit: Lady Deathwhisper for Curses.

Maexxna for poison?
Edited by Isiildur on 3/12/2013 8:55 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
8195
This is fine and all, but in our 10-man comp we have no priests/paladins/monks, and therefore cannot dispel the five minute disease. Can you add items to give a player these spells in case the raid does not have a way to stop this?


I'm sorry? Resto Druids can dispel just fine (even if it takes longer), as can any other healer. Tell your raid to pop cds if they're not going to be one of the first 3 immediately dispelled, and then the next dispels can go out 10 seconds later.

I don't see the problem.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12835
03/12/2013 08:34 AMPosted by Isiildur
Was mageara really that hard? I was thinking it was 2 healable? We 3 healed it and I sat at 75% mana the whole time.


So you just pop Mana potions randomly?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-baurtp2bfgzhsfa7/details/2/?s=13952&e=14498


For these normal fights I tend to use them as a health potion. I also ended up doing 45% overhealing and made almost no use out of revival. On ptr it was entirely possible to bring 8 dps and 2 healers and the fight was thought to be overtuned.
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90 Tauren Druid
8195
There's 6 months of this tier to look forward to, making the first 1/3 of it a faceroll doesn't sound like good pacing.


Citation?
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90 Human Death Knight
9340

Ok thank you for this. They must have been nerfed for us too then.


:( :( :(

We were SO CLOSE on our last raid night, when everything clicked, we just ran out of our raid time. We downed him tonight and while it was good... it wasn't great knowing it was nerfed DURING OUR FIRST PULL (server reset).
The fight was enjoyable. It was punishing if you slipped up, required absolute attention and communication with your team. One mistake after the 3rd door and it was a challenge to makeup for it.

I dunno. It's really discouraging. We HAD him AS WAS. It pushed us to get better; dps had to step up, tanks and healers too. Again I have to say the kill felt good but finding out a nerf may have been in effect mid-fight is... I just can't word it properly.


Yes, you almost had him, as did we (lost 2 DPS in transition and hit enrage). I am confident that with another few pulls, we could have had this down also.

But what you fail to understand that we are both on 4/16H raid teams. This isn't supposed to be that way for 4/16H teams. Even being 4/16H, my team has an average ilvl of 497 (counting all the 522's we got the first week). The average ilvl (prior to the nerf) for killing Horridon was 502.

They have already stated prior to release, that the FIRST FOUR bosses were tuned for guilds who have completed 16/16N. While I enjoy the challenge it presents, it just wasn't meant to be tuned for 4/16H guilds.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19290
For these normal fights I tend to use them as a health potion. I also ended up doing 45% overhealing and made almost no use out of revival. On ptr it was entirely possible to bring 8 dps and 2 healers and the fight was thought to be overtuned.


45.8% overheal from the potion.

And that isn't considering that your raid has at its disposal: 3 tranquilities and a vampiric embrace. Most raid comps will have one non-healer, non tank raid cooldown. Yours has 3 (I understand that your druid tank didn't use his, but that's germane).

Edit: Might I add that if you find these fights so trivial, you should look into using dps potions instead.
Edited by Isiildur on 3/12/2013 9:00 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
18305
It wasn't a nerf...... it just brought the two encounters down to the point of difficulty of the 25 man versions.


The only people who dont think its a nerf would be the ones crying for it to be nerfed in the first week.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
True, but on the other hand when was the last time they made a fight dependent on being able to dispel diseases (not trolling, I actually can't remember)? If it's as far back as I'm thinking, then no disease dispels doesn't seem like such a backwards comp.


No paladins, no priests and no monks of any kind? That's not a great comp.

I kinda see that allowing players to gear up with more farmable T15 bosses helps to keep progression flowing, but this is too soon. Let players bash their head against these bosses a little longer, allow some improvement to take place, then nerf it after 3 or 4 weeks. There's 6 months of this tier to look forward to, making the first 1/3 of it a faceroll doesn't sound like good pacing.


If it would even still be needed in 3 or 4 weeks. It seems like a lot of groups struggling where not understanding the fight correctly or where not properly executing.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11635
I lead Inthrall's raid. As he said we have no way of dispelling disease. Nor is it even in our foreseeable future to be able to do so as we play on a very low pop server which has very little choice of raiders. Such a requirement should not be in raid encounters. The disease which is not dispel-able by shamans and druids, which is the healing classes we use needs to be changed in such a way that is not encounter-breaking.


Bring back Cleansing Totem for Shammies!!?? <<<Please>>>
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87 Undead Warrior
10085

No paladins, no priests and no monks of any kind? That's not a great comp.


If they have a shadow priest, they can form a 10-man with only 1 repeated class. This really shouldn't be that surprising.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
12070

We dont have any paladins or monks, and you need a holy/disc priest for disease: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=527/purify


So that means you're healing with a resto druid / shaman?

Either log in a paladin alt, hang him out in the raid and cast symbiosis on him.

Or tell your druid to join a scenario or dungeon via LFD, symbiosis a paladin, and leave the group. Just be very "shhh" on that last one.


I don't play a druid (yet) but I thought if the druid or the target drops from a group it breaks the symbiosis link?
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90 Pandaren Monk
10705
03/12/2013 08:49 AMPosted by Isiildur
True, but on the other hand when was the last time they made a fight dependent on being able to dispel diseases (not trolling, I actually can't remember)? If it's as far back as I'm thinking, then no disease dispels doesn't seem like such a backwards comp.


Think it was Lich King.

Edit: Lady Deathwhisper for Curses.

Maexxna for poison?

Probably plenty of people raiding now that weren't even subscribed when those came out.
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