@Todays Hotfixes

55 Night Elf Hunter
1130
please bring back volley for hunters it is much needed back
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12595
I kinda see that allowing players to gear up with more farmable T15 bosses helps to keep progression flowing, but this is too soon. Let players bash their head against these bosses a little longer, allow some improvement to take place, then nerf it after 3 or 4 weeks. There's 6 months of this tier to look forward to, making the first 1/3 of it a faceroll doesn't sound like good pacing.

1) Horridon still isn't a faceroll. The nerf just made the learning process more manageable. If you're not even trying, you won't notice a difference; you're still going to die. If you were executing correctly, you won't notice a difference; you'll still win. There's just about 10-15% more breathing room for groups that are trying to execute correctly but haven't quite 'clicked' yet, which mostly just lets you see more of the fight on each pull. The wipes 'feel' better.

2) The first three bosses on normal aren't 1/3 of the tier. At best, numerically, they're 1/8 of the tier. In actual practice, in terms of expected time investment, they're less than 1/12 of the tier, and probably less than 1/16 of it, since heroics take at least 2-3 times as long as normals, and later normals, if tuned correctly, generally take substantially longer than the first few bosses.
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90 Human Death Knight
9340
I love all these 10-12H people saying, "I thought it was tuned just fine" "We had no problems with this". LOL

Horridon has his own Twitter account "Horridon Make Chuckle!" Hahahahahaha!
Edited by Sathir on 3/12/2013 9:34 AM PDT
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100 Human Warlock
20690
Hey all,

Lead encounter designer Ion Hazzikostas (Watcher) has been reading through a lot of your feedback regarding the [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693/"]raid boss hotfixes[/url], and he passed along the following response to this thread:

I just wanted to offer some context for the recent tuning hotfixes to the Horridon and Council of Elders encounters in the Throne of Thunder raid.

First off, the Council change, reducing their health in 10-player modes, was honestly just a bug fix. Yes, it made the encounter easier, which also makes it a nerf, but we simply goofed on the numbers. We generally aim for a 3:1 ratio of health for enemies in 25-player raids as compared to 10-player mode, since 25-player raids typically have ~17 DPS and 10-player raids have 5 or 6. Instead, the ratio on the bosses themselves (but not the Loa spirits or Sand Elementals) was mistakenly 2.5:1, and we didn’t notice until we started taking a closer look at why 10-player groups seemed to be having a harder time with the encounter. I apologize for the error on our part.

Second, regarding Horridon, that change was an intentional difficulty adjustment, with the aim of smoothing out the difficulty curve of the first section of the raid. By reducing the health of the trolls pouring out of each gate, we reduced the DPS requirement (and thus the gear requirement) of the encounter, but generally kept the mechanics checks intact. The trolls having 10-15% less health doesn’t mean that raids can suddenly fail to interrupt Venom Priests, ignore Effusions, stand in Sand Traps, or cuddle up with Frozen Orbs. It just means that there’s a lower DPS requirement to keep up with the waves while doing so.


Much appreciated. :)
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90 Pandaren Monk
18305
I love all these 10-12H people saying, "I thought it was tuned just fine" "We had no problems with this". LOL

Horridon Make Chuckle.


I love all these 4/16H people that think the encounter should be just as easy for them as those 1/12h guilds.

Also anyone know why they didnt buff the first boss? I mean they went though and nerfed, ooops I mean adjusted the harder fights but left the stupid easy faceroll one alone.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12595
03/12/2013 08:49 AMPosted by Isiildur
True, but on the other hand when was the last time they made a fight dependent on being able to dispel diseases (not trolling, I actually can't remember)? If it's as far back as I'm thinking, then no disease dispels doesn't seem like such a backwards comp.


Think it was Lich King.

Edit: Lady Deathwhisper for Curses.

Maexxna for poison?

Sounds about right. Although LK was the only one of the three where the dispel was required. (I think the last required decurse was on Sapphiron.)
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90 Human Death Knight
9340
I love all these 10-12H people saying, "I thought it was tuned just fine" "We had no problems with this". LOL

Horridon Make Chuckle.


I love all these 4/16H people that think the encounter should be just as easy for them as those 1/12h guilds.


I wouldn't have to think that if they hadn't already stated that the first four bosses were specifically tuned for T14 16/16N guilds.

Earth to Rando Anon Guy?
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90 Goblin Mage
8300
Still no mention of the bridge boss?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12595
I love all these 4/16H people that think the encounter should be just as easy for them as those 1/12h guilds.

Nobody's said that. Those of us under 6/16H are well aware that we're not just going to waltz in there on the first day, AoE everything, and watch it fall over, which is apparently what happened for real HM guilds. We expect to put some work in.

We just think the tuning was inappropriate given that this is a boss that should eventually be killable by groups that are currently sub-8/16N. (Not that they should be able to kill it now, but that they should be able to kill it eventually after clearing/farming nerfed t14.)
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90 Human Mage
11595
I'm a little disappointed we didn't get to attempt Council prior to the nerf, but I understand what is being said. If the health pools were just incorrect then thats something I suppose you have to fix, if you inteneded it to be 3:1 ratio roughly.

Horridon was tough before the add health reduction, and our group is decently geared. It took a lot of concentration to focus down adds as fast as possible, while interrupting and dispelling as many debuffs as possible. Interested to see how much the difficulty is affected this week in our raid for both bosses.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12835
03/12/2013 08:56 AMPosted by Isiildur
For these normal fights I tend to use them as a health potion. I also ended up doing 45% overhealing and made almost no use out of revival. On ptr it was entirely possible to bring 8 dps and 2 healers and the fight was thought to be overtuned.


45.8% overheal from the potion.

And that isn't considering that your raid has at its disposal: 3 tranquilities and a vampiric embrace. Most raid comps will have one non-healer, non tank raid cooldown. Yours has 3 (I understand that your druid tank didn't use his, but that's germane).

Edit: Might I add that if you find these fights so trivial, you should look into using dps potions instead.


Probably would be a good idea. I'm still getting used to the changes. Also I love our raid comp because of all those cds. Pretty much la la land through a lot of the fights. :)
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100 Human Rogue
11315
03/12/2013 09:40 AMPosted by Sanctifiêd
at least so we dont have to hear people with the fearless title calling a normal mode a joke.


You'd still hear fearless people calling normal mode a joke, you'd just feel worse about your inadequacies. If you think the only different between guilds clearing heroic and guilds struggling to clear normal is gear you are dead wrong.
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90 Orc Warlock
8265
I love all these 10-12H people saying, "I thought it was tuned just fine" "We had no problems with this". LOL

Horridon Make Chuckle.


I love all these 4/16H people that think the encounter should be just as easy for them as those 1/12h guilds.

Also anyone know why they didnt buff the first boss? I mean they went though and nerfed, ooops I mean adjusted the harder fights but left the stupid easy faceroll one alone.
There's a difference between a 4/16H guild saying it should be easy for a 1/16H guild and a 4/16H guild looking at the logs of the failing guild, seeing that they're not even remotely getting interrupts on the correct targets or switching fast enough. Most of the complainers weren't failing because of DPS requirements, they were failing because of lack of understanding of the fight. A 16/16H guild can tell a 16/17N guild that they are missing the proper execution regardless of the DPS required.

And they didn't buff Jin because they tend to not like buffing things. Imagine the sh!tstorm when suddenly half the guilds that got him last week can no longer kill him. It's why in council when they made the 2.5:1 error they didn't buff the health in 25m but rather nerfed the health in 10m even though it made the encounter significantly easier since, if executed properly by guilds in the 500ilvl range, you shouldn't even have to deal with Sul's empower anymore.
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90 Human Death Knight
9340
03/12/2013 09:42 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
at least so we dont have to hear people with the fearless title calling a normal mode a joke.


You'd still hear fearless people calling normal mode a joke, you'd just feel worse about your inadequacies. If you think the only different between guilds clearing heroic and guilds struggling to clear normal is gear you are dead wrong.


True, but what they are saying is exactly like Jeff Gordon driving a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport telling Joe the Pizza guy who's driving a Vespa how much they suck at racing.

Heroic jerks are still jerks regardless.
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90 Troll Hunter
11450
I'm fine with the first 2-3 bosses being easy, but any more than that would be disappointing.
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100 Human Rogue
11315
but still, this is a different story...ToT is supposedly tuned around t14N, or 496'ish gear to start. you couldnt outgear vaults on day 1, but you can outgear ToT with 517 gear.


And what, you think we all forgot how normal tuning should be?

my point is, you cant call stuff easy if you are clearing something tuned for normal raiders, in heroic gear. of course it is easier, on healers, dps, or tanks. any dps/healing check is easier with gear.


Of course it does but that doesn't change the fact that most guilds failing at this boss where not failing because of DPS or HPS requirements, they are just bad at reading logs (or in reality didn't even try). If you fail to a boss because you target swap slow, don't dispel and don't have an interrupt nor a personal CD bound to your bars of course we are going to laugh at you when you come here to report the "tuning issue". If you fail at mechanics you should fail the encounter, even on normal.
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100 Worgen Mage
18395
Hey all,

Lead encounter designer Ion Hazzikostas (Watcher) has been reading through a lot of your feedback regarding the [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693/"]raid boss hotfixes[/url], and he passed along the following response to this thread:

I just wanted to offer some context for the recent tuning hotfixes to the Horridon and Council of Elders encounters in the Throne of Thunder raid.

First off, the Council change, reducing their health in 10-player modes, was honestly just a bug fix. Yes, it made the encounter easier, which also makes it a nerf, but we simply goofed on the numbers. We generally aim for a 3:1 ratio of health for enemies in 25-player raids as compared to 10-player mode, since 25-player raids typically have ~17 DPS and 10-player raids have 5 or 6. Instead, the ratio on the bosses themselves (but not the Loa spirits or Sand Elementals) was mistakenly 2.5:1, and we didn’t notice until we started taking a closer look at why 10-player groups seemed to be having a harder time with the encounter. I apologize for the error on our part.

Second, regarding Horridon, that change was an intentional difficulty adjustment, with the aim of smoothing out the difficulty curve of the first section of the raid. By reducing the health of the trolls pouring out of each gate, we reduced the DPS requirement (and thus the gear requirement) of the encounter, but generally kept the mechanics checks intact. The trolls having 10-15% less health doesn’t mean that raids can suddenly fail to interrupt Venom Priests, ignore Effusions, stand in Sand Traps, or cuddle up with Frozen Orbs. It just means that there’s a lower DPS requirement to keep up with the waves while doing so.


Thanks for passing it along, Zarhym
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