Horridon's Last Gasp vs 504 Spirit of the Sun

90 Human Paladin
12940
I lucked out with my coin toss on Wednesday and won Horridon's Last Gasp. I've read conflicting results regarding the effectiveness of this trinket, so I put it to the test earlier during my 10 man's attempts at the Council of Elders. The trinket I'm directly comparing it to is 504 Spirits of the Sun, since it is the trinket I will be replacing if my math proves to be correct.

"Cloudburst", the MP5 buff provided by Horridon's Last Gasp, provided me with 871,001 mana throughout all attempts combined verse the Council of Elders, and since we made 17 attempts on the encounter earlier, that averages out to (871,001/17=) ~51,235 mana returned each fight. Since the average attempt on the Council of Elders lasted for 234.59 seconds (~3 minutes, 55 seconds), this means that Cloudburst provided roughly an average of (51,235/234.59=) 218.4 mana every second, or (218.4*5=) ~1092 mana every 5 seconds.

Compare this to 504 Spirit of the Sun, the trinket my other Holy Paladin partner was using during the same run. He received the "Radiance" buff from Spirit of the Sun a total of 70 times during all encounters, or an average of (70/17=) 4.117 times per encounter. A 504 Spirit of the Sun provides 7443 Spirit while Radiance is active, which means he received ((7443*4.117)/20=) 1532.141 average Spirit throughout each fight, or (1532.141*0.564=) ~864 mana every 5 seconds.

Add in the fact that Horridon's Last Gasp has 226 more Intellect than 504 Spirit of the Sun and my results show that the new trinket outweighs the 504 Spirit of the Sun, as would typically be expected from a higher-tier raid.

However, websites like Ask Mr. Robot state that 504 Spirit of the Sun is superior to Horridon's Last Gasp. The website stated that stat weights and information regarding new gear and mechanics may be in adjustment during the first week or two of a new patch, but I've also seen other healers put Horridon's Last Gasp and other new trinkets under scrutiny for possibly being worse than earlier trinkets before it, though I have yet to see established results myself.

For those who can review my math, is there any factors I may be forgetting? Weighing in the stats personally between trinkets usually isn't something I go so far out of my way to do, so I admit my math could be potentially wrong. Is Horridon's Last Gasp a solid upgrade over 504 Spirit of the Sun as one would typically assume, or is Spirit of the Sun a superior trinket even another tier into the patch?

My guild's log in case anybody is curious of the sources of my math: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zw2o5cki3i26sl4d/
Edited by Areos on 3/12/2013 1:23 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
16625
Sure, you have to be careful with taking averages of your trinket procs because the fight lengths could give weight to each trinket situationally. The spirits of the sun is a 2 minute icd, so the proc on it would look better for fights that are just longer than 2 minutes. The horridon one is on the new ppm system, so it has a variance with average procs that can give skewed data with a small sample size.

If you're trying to pick one or the other, I'd go with the horridon's.
Edited by Twistedmind on 3/12/2013 1:11 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12940
Sure, you have to be careful with taking averages of your trinket procs because the fight lengths could give weight to each trinket situationally. The spirits of the sun is a 2 minute icd, so the proc on it would look better for fights that are just longer than 2 minutes. The horridon one is on the new ppm system, so it has a variance with average procs that can give skewed data with a small sample size.

If you're trying to pick one or the other, I'd go with the horridon's.


I agree that the sample size and the encounter in question could lead to skewered results. Ideally I would test these trinkets on more--and different--encounters, but this is the only information I've personally worked with regarding this new trinket. It's a small sample size, but I feel it's decent enough to form an educated evaluation regarding the viability of the two trinkets in comparison to each other.

What is this new PPM system you're referring to? From what I've read, Horridon's Last Gasp is on a "1 RealPPM" with no internal cooldown, but I never really understood what that actually means.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
4810
Looking at a couple attempts. . .

Attempt 16:
Fight length: 4:36 or 276 seconds (mp5 modifier equals 55.2)
Mana gained: 56304 (12 procs s/b 57360)
Mp5 = 56304/55.2 = 1020mp5 which is equal to ~1820spirit

Attempt 17:
Fight length: 4:55 or 295 seconds (mp5 modifier equals 59)
Mana gained: 46368 (10 procs s/b 47,800)
Mp5 = 46368/59 = 786mp5 which is equal to ~1403spirit

Attempt 10:
This is an interesting one because there appears to be a bug. I have no clue if it's an actual bug, or something funky in WoL but on a 5:26 attempt, the logs say you gained 157320 mana!? Definitely something to keep an eye on! *This would equate to ~2,400mp5 or about 4,286 spirit.

Do you happen to remember anything about this attempt, or recall an attempt where you just randomly found your mana topped off? Gonna look at logs more closely now =)
Edited by Duboomchikin on 3/12/2013 8:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
4810
So, apparently the trinket stacks in some way! or at least it did on that "wonky" attempt =)

*on the other 2 attempts I looked at, it only stacked up to 2 (the "3,312" numbers you see)

Very interesting. . . .


[20:54:28.572] Areos gains 1656 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:54:30.554] Areos gains 1656 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:54:32.565] Areos gains 1656 mana from Areos's Cloudburst



[20:52:54.187] Areos gains 3312 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:52:56.192] Areos gains 3312 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:52:58.173] Areos gains 3312 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:53:00.198] Areos gains 3312 mana from Areos's Cloudburst



[20:53:02.189] Areos gains 4968 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:53:04.183] Areos gains 4968 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:53:06.200] Areos gains 4968 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:53:08.186] Areos gains 4968 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:53:10.171] Areos gains 4968 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:53:12.178] Areos gains 4968 mana from Areos's Cloudburst



[20:54:44.569] Areos gains 6624 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:54:46.556] Areos gains 6624 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:54:48.554] Areos gains 6624 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:54:50.563] Areos gains 6624 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:54:52.544] Areos gains 6624 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
[20:54:54.562] Areos gains 6624 mana from Areos's Cloudburst
Edited by Duboomchikin on 3/12/2013 8:11 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Priest
9140
Very interesting. . . .


Yeah, that's kind of crazy. I wasn't expecting the trinket to be capable of stacking like that. O_O
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11860
That certainly is correct for the normal upgraded Spirit trinket but not the Heroic version which still beats this trinket - at least any 5.2 trinket that's not Heroic.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Using AskMrRobot to tell you anything as a healer makes me a sad, sad Panda.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12940
Do you happen to remember anything about this attempt, or recall an attempt where you just randomly found your mana topped off? Gonna look at logs more closely now =)


There was one long attempt where I figured I would've been running close to mana at one point but realized I was still sitting at roughly 70% at the time, which I found surprising since I was basically GCD-locked on healing and dispels.

So, apparently the trinket stacks in some way! or at least it did on that "wonky" attempt =)

*on the other 2 attempts I looked at, it only stacked up to 2 (the "3,312" numbers you see)

Very interesting. . . .


I noticed that the Cloudburst buff is indeed able to stack, which is a very interesting mechanic for a trinket but one I didn't pay too close attention to. That being said, those mana gains for a single fight are exceptionally high.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12940
That certainly is correct for the normal upgraded Spirit trinket but not the Heroic version which still beats this trinket - at least any 5.2 trinket that's not Heroic.


I figured an upgraded heroic Spirit of the Sun would potentially surpass normal Horridon's Last Gasp. I am curious in doing math as to how much of a difference we're actually talking, however. Is it enough that heroic Spirit of the Sun is legitimately superior, or that the two trinkets are just equal in stature?

Using AskMrRobot to tell you anything as a healer makes me a sad, sad Panda.


I don't like going to automated stat-crunching websites like that, but it's something my Holy Paladin buddy talked about regarding Horridon's Last Gasp, so I decided to take a look at it myself. I do all of my stat-weighing and gear optimization on my own terms.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I don't like going to automated stat-crunching websites like that, but it's something my Holy Paladin buddy talked about regarding Horridon's Last Gasp, so I decided to take a look at it myself. I do all of my stat-weighing and gear optimization on my own terms.


Healer buddies don't let healer buddies go to AskMrRobot. :( He needs help. He needs...an intervention. >.>

Wait..they took that spell away. NOOOOO...

In all seriousness, the Horridon trinket and the Bag of Hydra spawn both look amazing.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12940
03/12/2013 10:31 AMPosted by Tiriel
I don't like going to automated stat-crunching websites like that, but it's something my Holy Paladin buddy talked about regarding Horridon's Last Gasp, so I decided to take a look at it myself. I do all of my stat-weighing and gear optimization on my own terms.


Healer buddies don't let healer buddies go to AskMrRobot. :( He needs help. He needs...an intervention. >.>

Wait..they took that spell away. NOOOOO...

In all seriousness, the Horridon trinket and the Bag of Hydra spawn both look amazing.


If my math is correct, I'll definitely be keeping Horridon's Last Gasp equipped. Bag of Hydra Spawn seems like it will have good potential, so I'm curious to see math on that trinket from anybody who may be lucky enough to have it.

One trinket I'm really interested in, however, is the pure throughput healing trinket off of Lei Shen.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
If my math is correct, I'll definitely be keeping Horridon's Last Gasp equipped. Bag of Hydra Spawn seems like it will have good potential, so I'm curious to see math on that trinket from anybody who may be lucky enough to have it.

One trinket I'm really interested in, however, is the pure throughput healing trinket off of Lei Shen.


One of our Holy Pallies got the Hydra Spawn. The first night, it only procced like, twice in a 7 minute fight. The second night, there was apparently some kind of a buff, because it procced at least 20 times in the same length of time (I'd have to go look through the log to be sure). So, it is looking good.

I don't think the trinket dropped off Lei Shen last night.
Reply Quote
1 Tauren Shaman
0
Why aren't you replacing your Relic of Chi-Ji with it? Both trinkets are significantly better than Relic, both in terms of Intellect gain and average Spirit.
So, apparently the trinket stacks in some way! or at least it did on that "wonky" attempt =)
Yup, Horridon's has no ICD. However, on Howtopriest's trinket evaluations, he almost certainly didn't calculate the proc as if it could stack; I'm doing napkin math for that right now and I'm having to multiply my Spirit gains by about 1.5x.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12940
03/12/2013 10:47 AMPosted by Kangamooster
Why aren't you replacing your Relic of Chi-Ji with it? Both trinkets are significantly better than Relic, both in terms of Intellect gain and average Spirit.


I haven't done solid math regarding Relic of Chi-ji verse normal Spirit of the Sun, but if it's confirmed that normal Spirit of the Sun is the better trinket, I will use that one instead of Relic of Chi-ji.
Reply Quote
1 Tauren Shaman
0
It is. :P

Here, I'll edit in a link to a few sites discussing T14 trinket balance in a second. T14 spirit procs are fairly easy to calculate though; they just work off regular PPM, they have a set ICD, etc. For all intents and purposes you can ignore proc chances too, it just extends the "real" ICD by around 3-4s for purposes of math.

[e] Nope, never mind, +2 Relic is like super overbudgeted. So it'd definitely be the Spirits you're replacing w/ Horridon's, and the proc overlay appears to make Horridon's Last Gasp far and away the best trinket this expansion.

( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7200081948 )
Edited by Kangamooster on 3/12/2013 12:04 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12940
It is. :P

Here, I'll edit in a link to a few sites discussing T14 trinket balance in a second. T14 spirit procs are fairly easy to calculate though; they just work off regular PPM, they have a set ICD, etc. For all intents and purposes you can ignore proc chances too, it just extends the "real" ICD by around 3-4s for purposes of math.

[e] Nope, never mind, +2 Relic is like super overbudgeted. So it'd definitely be the Spirits you're replacing w/ Horridon's, and the proc overlay appears to make Horridon's Last Gasp far and away the best trinket this expansion.

( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7200081948 )


Thank you for the clarification. It seems the Polarizing Seal is more powerful than I thought it was, which is something I'll have to consider in the future. I'm not a big fan of random Intellect procs as a healer, though...
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Thank you for the clarification. It seems the Polarizing Seal is more powerful than I thought it was, which is something I'll have to consider in the future. I'm not a big fan of random Intellect procs as a healer, though...


It really isn't random. It procs as soon as the ICD finishes, in my experience. Has about a 40% uptime.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12940
03/12/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Tiriel
Thank you for the clarification. It seems the Polarizing Seal is more powerful than I thought it was, which is something I'll have to consider in the future. I'm not a big fan of random Intellect procs as a healer, though...


It really isn't random. It procs as soon as the ICD finishes, in my experience. Has about a 40% uptime.


I'll have to give the trinket some more consideration on my part then. I was never really fond on Intellect proc trinkets for healers due to the random nature of healing, but it seems like the trinket provides a high amount of average Intellect.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Definitely stacks. Got it tonight in lfr and this is what it did for council. Seemed only to get to 3 stacks.

[20:42:55.995] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:42:59.948] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:02.168] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:03.933] Harpoa gains 2750 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:05.957] Harpoa gains 4125 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:07.961] Harpoa gains 4125 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:09.944] Harpoa gains 4125 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:11.958] Harpoa gains 4125 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:13.985] Harpoa gains 4125 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:15.931] Harpoa gains 4125 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:33.161] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:35.237] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:37.231] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:39.205] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:43:41.118] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:11.363] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:13.437] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:15.353] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:17.397] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:19.395] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:22.703] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:24.603] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:26.596] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:28.576] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:45:30.605] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:00.713] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:02.730] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:04.602] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:06.678] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:08.624] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:24.208] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:26.159] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:28.094] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:30.107] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:46:32.078] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:48:24.583] Harpoa gains 1375 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:48:26.584] Harpoa gains 2750 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:48:28.517] Harpoa gains 2750 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:48:30.502] Harpoa gains 2750 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:48:32.516] Harpoa gains 2750 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:48:34.527] Harpoa gains 2750 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
[20:48:36.514] Harpoa gains 2750 mana from Harpoa's Cloudburst
Edited by Sadiemay on 3/12/2013 7:05 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]