Team Waffle Podcast: Episode 50 - AUAA

90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Hello Druids!

As you may have heard, our 50th episode is coming up this Friday, March 15th. To celebrate this occasion we're going to have a bit of fun. Reesi will be coming back for a special "Ask Us Almost Anything" episode. You may recall we first did one of these for our 1st anniversary. Unfortunately the timing wasn't right to have it last December, so I decided to do it instead for our 50th episode. So here are the rules:


  • You can direct your questions to a specific person, or the whole group.
  • We will choose whether or not we're going to answer your question ahead of time.
  • As a rule, real-life politics and religion questions are going to be ignored on sight. "Guild Politics" is fair game though.


That's really it. If you would like to ask a question simply post it below, or send it to questions@teamwafflecast.com.

I may also be giving away Cinderkitten codes during the show as well. Or maybe at random to people that send in questions. You'll have to tune in to find out :)
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
7510
any tips on how to survive longer in pvp as a moonkin or resto (preferably boomie)
1) whats stronger pvp power or int?

i feel that moonfire and sunfire don't last long enough (14 sec) meaning that in most pvp (and some pve as well) situations i appy both dots move to next target and repeat pop starfall either before or after depending on if i need burst or sustained damage but normally they fall off or are VERY close to falling off in group fights. So my question is simple:
2)What do think of having MF and SnF Lasting longer possibly (16 or 18 seconds) or a glyph like
Glyph of Everlasting Affliction
  • Glyph of Everlasting Affliction
  • Hopefully the link works lol
    i have plenty of other question i can post later
    Edited by Frostflare on 3/15/2013 12:09 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    91 Tauren Druid
    6030
    Hey Frostflare, we touched on your question in last night's podcast. I thought I'd give some more written details here.

    any tips on how to survive longer in pvp as a moonkin or resto (preferably boomie)

    There's lots of little tricks you can do to survive longer as a boomkin. The first is to make sure you're doing all of the basic stuff. Are you using stampeding roar to escape? Are you spamming rejuv on yourself? Are there talent / glyph choices you can make to help out more. Since I don't know exactly what type of PvP you participate in, I can't give any direct advice about that. But to put it into context, my boomkin partner runs with HoTW for 2s and 3s. But he prefers DoC for dueling and BGs. He also likes to run with nature's grasp glyph when fighting melee, if he's not using Mass Entanglement. He uses wild charge in arenas and displacer beast in duels/BGs.

    A lot of boomkin survivability needs to be customized to the PvP you're involved in.

    More advanced tip: When you're fighting in areas which have a high ground - dalaran sewers, blades edge arena, or temple of kotmogu - place a mushroom on the high-ground then use caster-form wild charge to fly up to it, when in danger.

    Heart of the Wild bear form is incredibly strong at tanking melee damage. Get some practice with your bear survivability tools, then hotw+bear to keep yourself alive against a single melee.


    1) whats stronger pvp power or int?

    So, the answer to this question is: Math. Math which hasn't been done yet...
    I went ahead and did it for you... and anyone else interested... I'm estimating quite a few numbers - big picture folk!
    Skip to below if you don't care about the math
    Preliminaries:
    Spell power doesn't affect all spells the same. Instant cast spells only receive a small benefit (about 5%) from spell power, while really long spells (Healing Touch: about 180%) receive a big affect. I'm going to call this coefficient: A.

    Strength of a spell = [Base Power + A*Spell Power]*(PvP Power + 1)

    Since we're generally talking about gemming. Putting on a Spell power gem means that it comes at the cost of not putting on a PvP power gem. In math form:
    Ngems = number of total gems
    etc...
    Ngems = Npvp + Nspell
    or with less writing:
    N = Np + Ns

    So your spell power = Np*160 + Base SP
    Base spell power is about 11000... so let's put that in.
    SP = Np*160 + 11000

    And your PvP power = Np*(0.00004)*320 + base PvP Power
    Base PvP Power is about .4
    PvP = Np*(0.00004)*320 + .4

    Taking those 2 equations and putting them back into the Spell Strength equation:

    Spell = (Base Spell + A*SP)(1+PvP)
    Spell = (Base Spell + A*(Ns*160 + 11000))*(1+Np*0.00004*320+.4)
    Spell = (Base Spell + A*(Ns*160 + 11000))*(Np*0.00004*320 + 1.4)

    Remember, I mentioned that Np + Ns = N... let's put that in
    Spell = (Base Spell + A*((N - Np)*160 + 11000))*(Np*0.00004*320+1.4)

    We can differentiate this equation with respect to Np find an equation which tells us the optimum number of PvP gems, given all the rest of the stuff. This equation for the optimum is:

    320*Np = (Base Spell)/A +160*N + Base Intellect - 160*(1 + base PvP Power)/.0128
    320*Np = (Base Spell)/A + 160*N - 6500

    When N is a small number, like 0.
    Np ~ (Base Spell/A - 6500)/320 ... which basically means, you really want PvP Power!

    When N is a very large number,
    320*Np ~ 160*N
    Np ~ .5*N
    Which basically means you will 'eventually' want half of your gems to be PvP power and half of them to be Intellect.

    ----------------SKIP TO HERE IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT MATH -----------------------
    Since N isn't a mystery, we know it's about 10.
    320*Np = (Base Spell)/A + 1600 - 6500

    As long as Base Spell/A is much greater than 4900... you will prefer PvP Power over Intellect.
    Most spells have 10k-25k base effects. Most A's are between .05 and 2.0...
    So in pretty much every case, currently available, PvP power will be better than Int for damage. But you can use Wowhead to check the A and Base Spell power for the spells you're interested in, then solve for Np. If Np falls between 0 and 10, it will tell you roughly how many PvP gems you need to optimize your damage with that spell.

    For healers, PvP power is half as effective... so it becomes:
    320*Np = (Base Spell)/A +160*N + Base Intellect - 160*(1 + base PvP Power)/.0064
    320*Np = (Base Spell)/A + 160*N + 11000 - 30000

    Or when we're limited to about 10 gems:
    320*Np = (Base Spell)/A - 17400

    For Healing Touch, which has a coefficient of 1.8 and a base spell power of about 20000, you would gem full intellect.

    For Lifebloom Blooms:
    Which has a base healing of about 8000 and a coefficient of .75, you'd want to stack Intellect

    For Lifebloom Ticks:
    With a base healing of about 9k and a coefficient of .057, you want to stack PvP power.
    For Lifebloom Blooms:
    The coefficient gets bigger, so we will want to stack Int.

    For Regrowth (non Hot):
    With a base healing of 10k and coefficient of .95, you will want to stack PvP Power.

    For Rejuv:
    You will want to stack Intellect.

    So you can see that 'what is better,' is not a simple answer. It depends on your current gear levels and the particular spells. Although it looks like PvP power is best for boomkin damage right now, it may not stay this way as you improve your base gear level and as spell coefficients and base effects change.

    ... Spending time moonfiring/sunfiring

    As I was talking about on the podcast, those globals aren't really wasted. The reason why those globals are essentially free is because you're WAITING for other cooldowns before you attempt a kill. It's not necessarily your cooldowns that you're waiting for. You could be waiting for a teammate's. So while you wait, you might as well spread dots, heal, cyclone, and root. Attempting to kill someone outside of cooldowns is a bad habit.
    Edited by Clay on 3/18/2013 2:01 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Troll Druid
    7405
    Spell power doesn't affect all spells the same. Instant cast spells only receive a small benefit (about 5%) from spell power, while really long spells (Healing Touch: about 180%) receive a big affect. I'm going to call this coefficient: A


    While not all spells benefit from spellpower the same, the difference isn't something like a 180% scaling versus 5% scaling. This is because those spells you highlighted that scale less (dots and hots), get that scaling for each tick. If you add the total scaling from each tick, you will find the end result comparable to that of hardcasts.

    For instance, with a scaling of 1841 + (24% of sp) per tick of Moonfire, and 9 ticks, the spell is actually:
    9 x (1841 + (24% of sp)) = 16569 + (216% of sp)

    So it actually scales slightly better than the 4989 + (196.9% of sp) of Starfire.
    Edited by Velaniz on 3/19/2013 7:24 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    91 Tauren Druid
    6030
    03/19/2013 07:18 PMPosted by Velaniz
    Spell power doesn't affect all spells the same. Instant cast spells only receive a small benefit (about 5%) from spell power, while really long spells (Healing Touch: about 180%) receive a big affect. I'm going to call this coefficient: A


    While not all spells benefit from spellpower the same, the difference isn't something like a 180% scaling versus 5% scaling. This is because those spells you highlighted that scale less (dots and hots), get that scaling for each tick. If you add the total scaling from each tick, you will find the end result comparable to that of hardcasts.

    For instance, with a scaling of 1841 + (24% of sp) per tick of Moonfire, and 9 ticks, the spell is actually:
    9 x (1841 + (24% of sp)) = 16569 + (216% of sp)

    So it actually scales slightly better than the 4989 + (196.9% of sp) of Starfire.


    So take your 9 and put it on the A and the Base spell strength. Insert that into one of the final equations.

    320*Np = (Base Spell)/A - 17400
    becomes
    320*Np = (9*Base Spell)/9*A - 17400

    The 9's cancel.

    What's important is the ratio between A and base damage.

    I'll look through more carefully later and see if what you're saying changes things. But shooting from the cuff, it looks like it shouldn't change things.
    Edited by Clay on 3/19/2013 9:42 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Troll Druid
    7405
    What's important is the ratio between A and base damage


    I think you're wrong there. Base damage has no influence on any co-efficients whatsoever. It is just that - base damage. I was just highlighting how your preliminary assumption that spellpower barely scales with dots/hots was wrong. You can't use a false assumption to derive an equation, and then use that equation to prove said false assumption.

    Also, if the scaling of dots/hots were really as pathetically low compared to nukes as you think, they would become obsolete by the end of the expansion. Even now, in 5.2, a difference would've been noticed. 40 ilevels later and my dots still constitute the same percentage of my damage done as when I was a fresh 90.
    Reply Quote
    91 Tauren Druid
    6030
    03/19/2013 10:26 PMPosted by Velaniz
    What's important is the ratio between A and base damage


    I think you're wrong there. Base damage has no influence on any co-efficients whatsoever. It is just that - base damage. I was just highlighting how your preliminary assumption that spellpower barely scales with dots/hots was wrong. You can't use a false assumption to derive an equation, and then use that equation to prove said false assumption.

    Also, if the scaling of dots/hots were really as pathetically low compared to nukes as you think, they would become obsolete by the end of the expansion. Even now, in 5.2, a difference would've been noticed. 40 ilevels later and my dots still constitute the same percentage of my damage done as when I was a fresh 90.


    Actually... could you just do the math and compare your results with mine?
    Reply Quote
    91 Tauren Druid
    6030
    No corrections yet?

    What is wrong with you? You criticize my work, which I've clearly put some thought and effort into... with some hand waving trash that you hardly put any thought into? That's disrespectful.

    And your trash was obviously trash. I didn't assume anything. The coefficient you complained about was a variable, clearly marked: A. That means it could be anything.

    What compels people like you to open your mouth and act like you know what you're talking about, when you clearly haven't thought about it? I'm seriously curious. It's been driving me crazy lately. And then there's this hubris about, "you can't use false assumptions to derive an equation." Did you learn that from a Snapple cap?
    How often do you derive equations? Why should I be taking vague advice from you about deriving equations?

    Your only valid input was that I didn't have the number of ticks in the equation. I left that out, because my experience deriving things told me it would divide out and be irrelevant to the answer.


    g(x,y) = n*f(x,y)
    d/dx (g) = 0 = n*(df/dy)*(dy/dx) + n*df/dx
    0/n = 0 = (df/dy)*(dy/dx) + df/dx << SEE IT'S GONE!!


    And that really spoke volumes about your experience.
    Reply Quote

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