Help with Tortos 25m

100 Human Warrior
11885
Our guild has run into a roadblock on Tortos. We seem to have gotten the turtle kicking down pat but now are struggling with the bats and the subsequent quake/rockfall. Just a few questions for those of you who have already killed him...

1. Should melee help on turtle shells at all? Our strat has melee ignoring them, since they knockback, but icy veins says you can hit them from pretty far away without getting knocked back. Like I said it seems like we got turtles down but if we can help get them down faster that would only be good.

2. Where should bats be tanked? We were having our bat tank(Paladin) move them to the boss for additional cleave damage, but I'm also reading/hearing that it may be better to just tank them in the center. Also, any tips to help our bat tank with the bats, both in terms of threat and survivability? We only have two hunters so I don't think there were any MDs going on since they're both focusing on turtles(one is a designated kicker).

3. Near the end we switched tactics and had ranged nuke down bats since we were on good pace with the shells. We actually got our best attempt doing this but it was our last attempt so we couldn't get another. Are we on the right track here? Like I said at this point the bats are the big issue.

4. Are we behind on DPS? At the 5 minute mark we were at around 50% on Tortos, probably since ranged is so focused on turtles. I was reading some logs and some guilds are killing him in that time if not faster. Now granted those guilds are probably in all heroic gear but it shouldn't make THAT much of a difference, should it?

Frustrating because we got thru the first three bosses fairly quickly, and Tortos is supposedly one of the easier bosses. I feel like we're doing something drastically wrong.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
03/15/2013 08:27 AMPosted by Arterius
1. Should melee help on turtle shells at all?


No

03/15/2013 08:27 AMPosted by Arterius
2. Where should bats be tanked?


We do front right of boss.

03/15/2013 08:27 AMPosted by Arterius
4. Are we behind on DPS? At the 5 minute mark we were at around 50% on Tortos,


Yes out kill this week was 5:40.

We keep ranged on the turtles melee on boss cleaving the bats and kick extra shells at the bats.
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100 Human Warrior
11885
Thanks. Few more questions...

1. Should ranged prioritize bats at all, or at least after they've been shelled?

2. Should shells only be used on Tortos to interrupt him or should extras be used to keep the 25% damage taken debuff on him?
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90 Human Priest
13720
2. Should shells only be used on Tortos to interrupt him or should extras be used to keep the 25% damage taken debuff on him?


our turtle kicker (one of our hunters) tries his best to kick the shell through other turtles/bats on the way to horridon but basically you should probably be making damn sure you can interrupt stone breath, it's not worth it to chance keeping the debuff up. i think when we get him to a really low percentage we stop attacking turtles at all but i could be wrong.
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90 Human Death Knight
13165
25 man raider here.

1. Cc works on the bats, and it helps out the tanks/healers a ton. When the bats are grouped up we had our dks rotate through a Remorseless winter rotation. Ring of frost works too. If the melee are struggling to burn down the bats quickly, sticking a high burst/high aoe ranged to help kill them fast could help. We had an arcane mage and warlock help out when needed I think.

2. We used extra shells to burn down the debuffed bats and debuff tortos. Just have to get lucky with the kicks.

3. At around 20% it was burn on the boss. It got insane but pop hero and go!

Our big problem was figuring out that our blood dk was getting clobbered on the bats and our warrior backup tank was holding them like a champ taking 1/2 the damage.
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90 Worgen Druid
8035
1. Cc works on the bats, and it helps out the tanks/healers a ton. When the bats are grouped up we had our dks rotate through a Remorseless winter rotation. Ring of frost works too. If the melee are struggling to burn down the bats quickly, sticking a high burst/high aoe ranged to help kill them fast could help. We had an arcane mage and warlock help out when needed I think.


Please do not listen to him. You mean well, sir, but your info is 100% wrong and you'll cost these guys more wipes.

The bats should NOT be kited, they should NOT be stunned AT ALL. DO NOT STUN AT ALL.

Simple tanking view of bats: Block tanks, NO KITING, NO STUNNING. Pop CD's when quake happens and win while taking 0 dmg.

Why you do it for those that aren't stupid and are curious: The bats are like the adds on HM Empress. If you kite them, when they catch up to you, the each hit you for 50K each at the very same second. You can imagine how this works out with the Drain life ability. The same thing happens with stunning them, their swing timer gets reset and they hit at the exact same second killing the tank. You don't use a tank like monk/DK on it because they are squishy and don't have a shield. Block tanks take less dmg.

Follow that and you won't have a problem with bats.
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100 Human Warrior
11885
So DON'T stun the bats? That's interesting. I had actually specced Shockwave and was using it right before the Quake so the tank wouldn't be getting hit while stunned while his HP was low after the quake, and it seemed to be working. I don't know if anyone else was stunning or not though.

Strange enough we were using a Pally tank for the bats and he's definitely geared enough for it, but he was still getting killed. Right now I'm thinking it's a DPS/getting bats shelled issue so we can kill them faster. I'm assuming bats should always be dead before quake/subsequent rockfalls right?
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90 Human Paladin
16200
We stunned our bats with little issue. Usually right before the Quake Stomp.
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100 Human Warrior
21645
Dunno about the other tanks, but a prot warrior can kite the bats endlessly without issue once they have sufficient threat.
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100 Tauren Druid
8330
03/15/2013 08:27 AMPosted by Arterius
1. Should melee help on turtle shells at all?


The only time Melee should hit the turtles is if your range is unable to get that very first turtle down in time. Otherwise, they should lay off them.

03/15/2013 08:27 AMPosted by Arterius
2. Where should bats be tanked? We were having our bat tank(Paladin) move them to the boss for additional cleave damage, but I'm also reading/hearing that it may be better to just tank them in the center.


We had the bats tanked off to the side from the center (the center is bad because that's where the new turtles come from). If at all possible don't use a block tank on the bats, though; block tanks are better tanking the boss. DK Tank or Bear if at all possible. If your other tank is a Monk, ignore this advice (Monk even worse than block tank for bats).

3. Near the end we switched tactics and had ranged nuke down bats since we were on good pace with the shells. We actually got our best attempt doing this but it was our last attempt so we couldn't get another. Are we on the right track here? Like I said at this point the bats are the big issue.


At around 25%-20% and you still have a spare shell or two it's safe to just burn the boss. You just need extra shells around because you likely will not be killing any more turtles from there on.

4. Are we behind on DPS? At the 5 minute mark we were at around 50% on Tortos, probably since ranged is so focused on turtles


There is no enrage timer, so while you are bringing the boss down on the slow side, as long as your raid has everything under control it doesn't matter how long it takes, really.

03/15/2013 08:52 AMPosted by Arterius
1. Should ranged prioritize bats at all, or at least after they've been shelled?


It depends. What worked for my raid was to kill the bats before the Quake Stomp, and that included having spare range DPS killing the bats. If you have like 3 bats left when Quake Stomp happens, that's not too bad, either; you just don't want all 12 bats there to kill your tank, is all.

2. Should shells only be used on Tortos to interrupt him or should extras be used to keep the 25% damage taken debuff on him?


You should at least have 2 spare shells to be on the safe side (my raid discovered that any more than that is pretty wasteful). Any extra shells can and should be kicked at the bats when possible, but don't go out of the way to do this.

Most of all, don't worry TOO much about maintaining the debuff on Tortos; it'll happen as a matter of course.

03/15/2013 04:04 PMPosted by Arterius
So DON'T stun the bats? That's interesting. I had actually specced Shockwave and was using it right before the Quake so the tank wouldn't be getting hit while stunned while his HP was low after the quake, and it seemed to be working.


Stunning the bats resets their swing timer, and can cause them all to attack the tank at the same time. That is a bad thing to have happen. If you stun them at all, you have to make absolutely sure that those bats die before the stun wears off.
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100 Human Warrior
11885
Thanks a bunch for all the help. Looks like our last pull was on the right track, just need more practice. Think we'll get it down tomorrow.
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100 Undead Priest
16710
Posted by Arterius
1. Should melee help on turtle shells at all?

No


False. they should. On the first round of turtle shells. Otherwise the chances of getting that first shell down in time are quite slim.

03/15/2013 08:52 AMPosted by Arterius
1. Should ranged prioritize bats at all, or at least after they've been shelled?


Before the unannounced change this week, you could ignore shells once you had enough, because until the soft enrage no more than 3 could be alive at a time. Now ranged must focus on getting all the 3 spinners dead before the next round as any turtle left alive stays alive.

2. Should shells only be used on Tortos to interrupt him or should extras be used to keep the 25% damage taken debuff on him?


Yes. Use up at least two each round. 1 on the boss to interrupt and 1 on the bats to make them die fast. As you start to get an excess of shells, then use additional shells when his debuff falls off for bonus damage on the boss.

Tips:
Don't let your ranged run far away. Keep away from the back and the water. Doing this makes it easier to keep shells in range.

Sub 20% we had stopped killing bats and started kiting. If you have a tank that can do that w/o risking death then go ahead, otherwise we used Frost DKs in blood presence spamming howling blast (not that chillblains is working right now).
Edited by Poena on 3/16/2013 10:40 AM PDT
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