Real Proc Per Minute (RPPM) Trinket Changes

100 Night Elf Hunter
11765
03/13/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Edgy
I guess what I do not understand is that the old system for trinkets worked fine.

ICD PPM is fine, as it puts a floor on how frequently the procs can happen, but traditional PPM w/o an ICD is very broken and not normalized across all classes/specs. How can it be fair that a dual-wield gcd-capped AoE-cleave DPS would get 3-5x the proc rate as another single-wield, resource-capped single-target DPS? For the sake of balance, both in PvE and PvP, RPPM is a step in the right direction.

I'm going to assume the AverageProcInterval (in seconds) is something like:
Max[ICD, 60 / (RPPM * HasteMod)]


As I said in my statement. It is fine to decide to change how trinkets will work.

However, at this point the trinkets do not work well even with the buffs and as it stands many classes will be using Tier 14 trinkets as BIS over the new trinkets.

They need to spend more time working on this idea and not turn Tier 15 into a beat test for this new trinket system.

Get rid of the idea for now and bring it out in the next expansion after they have plenty of time to work on it internally and thru a whole beta test for the new expansion.
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61 Blood Elf Rogue
10655
03/13/2013 12:43 PMPosted by Crideon
A trinket that is intended to proc every 1 minute could in theory go 8 minutes or more without activating.


Perhaps this is why your internals are having such issues. Do you not realize the absurdity in this statement, or have I failed for 40 odd years in comprehending what 'intended' means?

If you're looking for true variability in trinket procs and "INTEND" for them to be once per minute then you make the ICD a lil shorter but extend the window to proc by the remainder of said one minute... I.E. 30s ICD and a 30s guaranteed window to proc.
RIIIIIICE! Give this man a paycheck Blizzard and start paying attention to what he has to say.
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61 Blood Elf Rogue
10655
03/13/2013 02:07 PMPosted by Edgy
Wish windwalker monks had some TEB stacks to use with our instantly procc'ing trinkets...

This is off-topic, but I do agree: it is kind of clunky that when trinkets proc at the start of a fight, WW has no/minimal TEB stacks to use. Possibly Monks could get a CD (5min-ish) that gives 10 stacks of their Brew/Tea on-demand?
Agreed. Windwalker Monks have no immediate on command burst. They need to wind up. So the procs on these trinkets just make it worse. Blizzard even made a point to have Windwalker Monk's TEB stacks / buff get cleared on the open of a raid encounter.
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Summary:
We added a bit of cheating in the player’s favor to avoid long streaks of bad luck. This change is now live.

Longer explanation:

Last night we hotfixed in a change for trinkets that use the RPPM system. Every time your trinket fails to proc, it increases the chance it will proc. Unlucky streaks will be more rare and extremely unlucky streaks should never happen. In addition, we increased the chance for these trinkets to proc on the pull. To top it off, we increased the proc rates of the Agility and Strength trinkets in Throne of Thunder by 10% and the Intellect and Spirit trinkets by 5%.



Sounds great. Anyone else wondering, though, why they can do this to trinkets and not for the poor people that are getting incredibly long losing streaks on their loot rolls? I'm not one of them, but it does make me wonder why the trinkets are easy to hotifx and the loot rolls aren't, since they technically should be basically the same kind of calculations going on.

Another example of this would be how they made Chi generate on a more regular basis for Mistweavers. I'm assuming it was also something like "every time they don't get a point of Chi, their next chance increases by x."

Most of the trinkets for this tier are poorly, poorly rated for healers anyways. I think I saw one site the other day that has a couple rated so low they were below the Shieldwall blue trinkets. I don't need everything to be random (or "interesting"). As Moarbier said above, I don't need EVERYTHING in the game to be "interesting", I merely need it to be functional.
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90 Human Paladin
8575
03/13/2013 09:42 AMPosted by Moarbier
For 5.2, we made a change to trinkets to make them less predictable and less boring with the RPPM system.


Ok, is anyone else beginning to feel like we are being subjected to a curse rather than a benefit here? What comes to mind is this "May you live in interesting times."

There are some things in this game that should simply be functional.

As a player, I don't need every single thing to be interesting. I do not need my AOE rotation to be interesting (GC mentioned this a while ago, I think with regard to priests). I do not need my trinket proc to be interesting. I merely need it to be functional.

Now, I want my character to be interesting, I want lore to be interesting, I want my rotation to be somewhat interesting in that it's not one button, but as far as my rotation goes, above all things, as a raider, I simply want it to be functional. I want to be able to get the job done without "interesting complexity" that simply turns out to be mindless, pointless complexity for some vague "interesting" goal.

I find interest in the enounters themselves, in the world of Pandaria, in the people I meet along the way. Those are all truly interesting.

But, an interesting RPPM proc that is not functional does not support my goals in the game. Perhaps it is interesting to theorycrafters. However, I would much rather not be subjected to this kind of rng when it comes to my trinket of all things. For goodness sake, just make it work.

And please, lay off the "interesting" occasionally, and focus just a bit more on basic, simple functionality.


Well stated. This post reflects my own opinion about the direction of WoW since Cata dropped. Keep the player base interested in the game as a whole - don't throw us curveballs with "proc rates".
If this is an attempt at making the game a bit more challenging, it's absurd. As a theorycrafter, I find nothing interesting with this change. Instead, rather annoyed.
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90 Human Warrior
11790
Any chance we could have this RNG mitigation added to every single aspect of the game?

Cheers.


Omg so this. READ THIS BLIZZARD AND SEE WHAT WE WOULD ALL LIKE, please. :). This would solve SO many issues: RNG on things like zin'rokh from archeology come to mind...raid item loots as well...so many possibilities!!!!
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90 Human Warrior
11790
Also, was anyone else of the opinion that this was initially talking about raid item chances? At first my heart was so happy, then I found out its about something I really could care less about. Possibly just because I'm kind of let down, or possibly because I'm old school and figured that trinkets should work correctly and maybe blizzard shouldn't be acting like they're doing such a huge favor for us in doing this; rather this is how it should have originally been. Then again maybe I'm just tired. Lol.

Arës
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100 Goblin Shaman
21545

• Horridon's Last Gasp
• Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn
• Stolen Relic of Zuldazar
• Lightning-Imbued Chalice


These trinkets needed a 200%-1000% buff, not a 5% buff. I have zero intention of using Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Stolen Relic of Zuldazar or Lightning-Imbued Chalice over my 476 Relic of Chi-Ji, they're that bad. Even Horridon's Last Gasp is an extremely minimal upgrade considering the massive iLvl jump.


Ya no kidding 5% is a joke. I sure wish they had some sort of place where they could test out these "new ideas" they come up with so they don't trash game play when they reach live servers. OH WAIT THEY DO ITS CALLED PTR....... but they seem to think there is this fantastic appeal to receiving an untested trinket so they don't want it to be on PTR vendors....... mind = blown. Meanwhile Lightning-Imbued Chalice will continue to take up space in my bags.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13860
Silly question: does this also apply to any RPPM based item? ie: enchants & legendary metas
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100 Undead Mage
8580
Don't complain man.

Back in Wrath, the only caster trinkets you could buy were LOADED with hit. At one point, I was 150 over the hit cap.

I stuck with an IL 200 trinket, abyssal rune, over something higher because the good ones I could have used refused to drop/come my way.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
unreliable dps trinkets are not "fun".

ICD based trinkets may be "boring", but they sure are reliable.

like...when pulling a boss, it shouldnt be a lottery. if a trinket doesnt proc with my cooldowns going, its value is GREATLY diminished.

this is why having reliable trinkets is a good thing. thats why i'll probably be using lei shen's final orders for a very long time.
Edited by Aeliel on 3/13/2013 10:38 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
8070
WTB ICD PPM
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82 Pandaren Monk
6860
03/13/2013 09:06 AMPosted by Nethaera
Every time your trinket fails to proc, it increases the chance it will proc. Unlucky streaks will be more rare and extremely unlucky streaks should never happen.


What I think everyone here wants to know is this, when are you going to implement this with gear drop chance? So we don't go 20 rounds in LFR with 0 to show.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14120
So I picked up Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault for 1750 valor. It's a nice 522 trinket so I did vendor my old 483. Reforged everything to deal with the massive +hit infusion.

In three hours of raiding last night it proc'd 39 times. Ignoring downtime/discussions/etc, the buff was up 8.2% of the time. For comparison during the same raid and same gear my 2/2 upgraded on Use trinket, the Arrowflight Medallion, had 62 uses with a buff uptime of 10.9%.

Summary:
We increased the proc rate of the following trinkets by 10%:
• Renataki’s Soul Charm
• Talisman of Bloodlust
• Bad Juju
• Rune of Re-Origination
• Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun
• Primordius’ Talisman of Rage
• Spark of Zandalar
• Gaze of the Twins


I see that it's not on the list. Is it following the PPM model? If so, was it excluded from the list for a reason?
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90 Pandaren Monk
9130
So I picked up Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault for 1750 valor. It's a nice 522 trinket so I did vendor my old 483. Reforged everything to deal with the massive +hit infusion.

In three hours of raiding last night it proc'd 39 times. Ignoring downtime/discussions/etc, the buff was up 8.2% of the time. For comparison during the same raid and same gear my 2/2 upgraded on Use trinket, the Arrowflight Medallion, had 62 uses with a buff uptime of 10.9%.

Summary:
We increased the proc rate of the following trinkets by 10%:
• Renataki’s Soul Charm
• Talisman of Bloodlust
• Bad Juju
• Rune of Re-Origination
• Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun
• Primordius’ Talisman of Rage
• Spark of Zandalar
• Gaze of the Twins


I see that it's not on the list. Is it following the PPM model? If so, was it excluded from the list for a reason?


Shado-Pan VP dps trinkets have a 105 sec ICD. They're not RealPPM.
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100 Orc Rogue
10260
If anyone with some maths knowledge might drop a bomb on me... =D

The % increases on these trinkets, how is this calculated? Does the PPM go from 1.00 to 1.05 (as an example)? Like:

1 x 1.1251 x 10 / 60 ~ 18.75 to -> 1.05 x 1.1251 x 10 / 60 ~ 19.68

Or is this a straight up, 18.75 + 5
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
as a dps I do not want rng.

rng dps is NOT FUN.

i would love to know why the change to RPPM was needed. I am quite happy with ICD trinkets.

also, the value of a trinket varies depending if you can align it with cooldowns. randomness is something I absolutely dont want, as a damage dealer. it makes me do poorly. tell me why I should give up my lei shen's final orders when it is awesome, AND reliable?

please dont nerf t14 trinkets to force us to change.
Edited by Aeliel on 3/14/2013 7:35 AM PDT
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100 Worgen Druid
16955
03/13/2013 09:06 AMPosted by Nethaera
Calculate the proc frequency as normal. Based on that, you can figure out the expected average proc interval. We also now keep track of time since the last successful proc (this is different from the time since last chance to proc), capped at 1000 sec. Multiply the proc chance by MAX(1, 1+((TimeSinceLastSuccessfulProc/AverageProcInterval)-1.5)*3). For example, if a proc has an average proc interval of 45 sec, and it’s been 72 sec since your last successful proc, you’ll get a 1.3x multiplier to your proc chance. If you’ve been out of combat for a few min, and it’s been 5 min since your last successful proc, you’ll get a whopping 16.5x multiplier to your proc chance.


The nomenclature here is a little confusing because this system, due to how it alters the probability distribution of the proc interval, will itself alter the average proc interval. The way I am reading it, AverageProcInterval is a nominal value, computed from the nominal RPPM proc rate of the given trinket along with the player's haste. If my math is correct, the described system will shift the probability distribution in the manner depicted in the following diagram, <http://i.imgur.com/OvSqAi8.png>, and this causes the actual average proc interval to be about 0.8844*AverageProcInterval.

Put another way, in addition to the explicit proc rate buffs mentioned later in your post, the described system also raises the actual average proc rate of every trinket by about 13.07%. Is this interpretation correct?

[edit: corrected some math]
Edited by Stenhaldi on 3/15/2013 5:08 AM PDT
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1 Human Mage
0
Summary:
We added a bit of cheating in the player’s favor to avoid long streaks of bad luck. This change is now live.

Longer explanation:
Traditionally, trinkets and similar proc effects in the game had high proc chances with an internal cooldown (ICD). This made the procs random in theory, but really pretty predictable. You would know that a trinket would proc on the pull and then reliably every 45 sec (or whatever the ICD was).

For 5.2, we made a change to trinkets to make them less predictable and less boring with the RPPM system. Sometimes you can get lucky and get several back to back procs. This feels cool. Sometimes you can also be unlucky, and get long streaks when the trinket just refuses to proc. A trinket that is intended to proc every 1 minute could in theory go 8 minutes or more without activating.

Last night we hotfixed in a change for trinkets that use the RPPM system. Every time your trinket fails to proc, it increases the chance it will proc. Unlucky streaks will be more rare and extremely unlucky streaks should never happen. In addition, we increased the chance for these trinkets to proc on the pull. To top it off, we increased the proc rates of the Agility and Strength trinkets in Throne of Thunder by 10% and the Intellect and Spirit trinkets by 5%.


As I'm sure multiple people have said already, this is exactly what is needed for Raid Finder loot drops. I assume that idea is already being considered. Hopefully it'll be implemented.
Edited by Uthben on 3/14/2013 8:12 AM PDT
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