Heroic 10M Council

99 Troll Rogue
21375
Moonz may have had more paladins available or something. Either way, you're right that it is very hard to compare guilds like this but at the end of the day I am still convinced that paragon just plain better than everyone else.

Quite possibly but BL, Exodus, Method and Envy ran 4+ 25 mans that full cleared while Paragon ran 1. The gear advantage from that has the potential to pretty well mitigate skill differences to the extent they still exist.
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90 Pandaren Monk
18305
03/14/2013 08:50 AMPosted by Xiic
Paragon,blood legion, exodus, method, stars, etc all have players close to the same skill level that any one of them could get a kill first. Its not like saying that the 200th ranked 25 man guild killed it before paragon, or that it took blood legion 10-15 attempts while it took paragon 150+/- attempts.


Do you have any proof for this?

We have three years of proof that Paragon is on a whole 'nother level from BL, Exodus and Method. They've killed heroic end bosses like LK and Ragnaros WEEKS before the second kill. Those aren't flukes.

The problem with you is you have no idea what you're talking about and you think that because you have an opinion your opinion matters at all.


You want proof from me but then you make up things just to make it look like you had a point?

Lets take a look shall we

In Tier 14 Heroic Will Paragon killed it one day before Method and 2 days before Blood legion. Heroic Empress they all killed it on the same day with Blood legion first and Paragon second. Heroic Sha Paragon and Method killed it on the same day and Blood legion two days after.

So we can say that all 3 end bosses were killed about the same time and definitly not weeks between.

Now onto Tier 13. Heroic Deathwing. What do you know, they all killed it on the same day. Now for heroic Spine Paragon killed it one day before Method and two days before Blood legion.

Again 2 days difference between all three.

Now Tier 12. Here you get closer to what you said. Paragon killed it 7 days before Method and Blood legion was asleep killing it 24 days later.

Now to Tier 11. For Sinestra paragon killed it 2 days before Method and 11 days before Blood legion. For Al'Akir it was 3 days and 6 days after Paragon. For Chogall Again it was two days and 9 days. Then for Heroic Nef it was 20 and 5 days in th same order.

Tier 10. Halion was 1 day after for Method and another day after for Blood legion. Then for Lich King it was Paragon first and then Blood legion 1 day after and Method another day after that.

There that takes us back to just over 3 years ago with the start of ICC.

Lets take a look shall we.

Tier 14 it was a total of 2 days between all 3.
Tier 13 they all killed it on the same day.
Tier 12 Paragon killed it 1 week before Method and 3 1/2 weeks before Blood legion
Tier 11 Of the 4 end bosses it Blood legion was ithing 11 days of all four and Method 20 days ( 3 days for the 3 fights other than Nef).
Tier 10 Total of 2 days between all 3 again.

It is hardly weeks. Of the 12 bosses listed (included H Spine) Method killed all but H Nef within 7 days of Paragon and Blood Legion killed all but 3 of them within a week of Paragon.

Thats also not to include all 3 of them being beat to some kills.

Lets also remember befor last Tier paragon was a 25 man guild and some left, so they are not raiding with thier top 10 from previous tiers.
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90 Orc Warrior
11860
03/14/2013 10:20 AMPosted by Fierydemise
Moonz may have had more paladins available or something. Either way, you're right that it is very hard to compare guilds like this but at the end of the day I am still convinced that paragon just plain better than everyone else.

Quite possibly but BL, Exodus, Method and Envy ran 4+ 25 mans that full cleared while Paragon ran 1. The gear advantage from that has the potential to pretty well mitigate skill differences to the extent they still exist.


That gear advantage will only inflate over the course of this tier. By the time those guilds get to ra-den, paragon will be significantly behind.

03/14/2013 10:22 AMPosted by Mansonn
Gone are the days of simple bosses with disgusting dps requirements. I hope.


Hopefully... endgame has sucked hard for quite some time now


You should try something other than LFR.
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90 Orc Warrior
11860
Now to Tier 11. For Sinestra paragon killed it 2 days before Method and 11 days before Blood legion. For Al'Akir it was 3 days and 6 days after Paragon. For Chogall Again it was two days and 9 days. Then for Heroic Nef it was 20 and 5 days in th same order.


Blood legion killing a boss ELEVEN days after paragon despite raiding the same absurd hours isn't enough of a gap for you?

03/14/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Winhee
Then for Lich King it was Paragon first and then Blood legion 1 day after and Method another day after that.


What on earth are you going on about? Paragon killed HLK on March 26th, the WORLD SECOND KILL was on April 11th. The US first kill didn't happen until a full month later when Premo got it on April 23rd.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Hell, that ragnaros gap would have been larger if method hadn't gotten wind of the triforce strat.

Paragon is the best guild in the world, hands down and no matter how hard you try and tell the world that winning every single tier they were not banned for by a matter of days and often more, isn't proof enough, then you have some issues understanding facts.
Edited by Xiic on 3/14/2013 10:34 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
18305
03/14/2013 10:32 AMPosted by Xiic
Now to Tier 11. For Sinestra paragon killed it 2 days before Method and 11 days before Blood legion. For Al'Akir it was 3 days and 6 days after Paragon. For Chogall Again it was two days and 9 days. Then for Heroic Nef it was 20 and 5 days in th same order.


Blood legion killing a boss ELEVEN days after paragon despite raiding the same absurd hours isn't enough of a gap for you?

03/14/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Winhee
Then for Lich King it was Paragon first and then Blood legion 1 day after and Method another day after that.


What on earth are you going on about? Paragon killed HLK on March 26th, the WORLD SECOND KILL was on April 11th. The US first kill didn't happen until a full month later when Premo got it on April 23rd.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Hell, that ragnaros gap would have been larger if method hadn't gotten wind of the triforce strat.


First you are correct on the Heroic Lich King, I looked at normal mode. My mistake.

Now you bring up another point. Is it skill level or strat method that determines world first kills?
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100 Worgen Druid
17585
A combination.
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90 Orc Warrior
11860
Skill dictates how quickly a guild comes up with a working strat and skill dictates how good that strat is. When paragon killed heroic nef with a dozen feral druids, you bet your boots method, vodka and blood legion were caught unprepared.
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90 Orc Warrior
11860
Just to provide an example:

This is how Method did their seed phase for their world second heroic ragnaros kill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0YG2KKvLcLc#t=488s

One week earlier, this is how paragon did it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ez1pRo1sywY#t=293s
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100 Human Paladin
15570
Just want to say Paragon jumped from 3/12 to 7/12 and third place in a couple hours. For a second I thought they had lost the touch. Race is heating up now :)
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100 Human Priest
18620
My friends in top 10 man guilds, Challenge Accepted has been cheering and following your footsteps ( finished in the top 20 US 10 man last tier) for some time.

We have been looking at your current progress, ( and paragon's) with great fear.

It seems 10 mans are overtuned and we got completely raped on thunrderforged gear.
In our 12/12 normal clear last week, we got 0 thunderforged loot. The terrible 25 man on our server killed 1 boss and got 2 thunderforged pieces. This week they killed 3 bosses with the nerfs to council and horridon and got 6 thunderforged. We still got none.

Loot is broken for 10 mans. And its making the race completely unbalanced. Without an army of alts to run 25 man alt runs for mains and or class stack to cheese fights, 10s are really messed up this tier.

Best of luck to US 10 mans in this tier.

ps: the only reason Paragon is staying competitive with the 25 man raiding guilds is because they are so much better.
Edited by Holyavenger on 3/14/2013 12:05 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Loot is broken for 10 mans. And its making the race completely unbalanced. Without an army of alts to run 25 man alt runs for mains and or class stack to cheese fights, 10s are really messed up this tier.


I never got this, what exactly is stopping 10-mans from running alt raids or to have alts for class stacking?
Edited by Ceddya on 3/14/2013 12:12 PM PDT
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100 Worgen Druid
17585
Nothing is stopping 10s from running alt raids and any that want to compete really should.

I think it just is harder for the 10s below the top 5 or 10 because due to the sheer number of other 10s it can be hard to have alt requirements on your raiders if they don't feel like it.
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
I think it just is harder for the 10s below the top 5 or 10 because due to the sheer number of other 10s it can be hard to have alt requirements on your raiders if they don't feel like it.


This.
Many 10's (even competitive) just dont have the time constraints or roster available for this sort of thing. I guess even 10m's have to class stack once in a while ;)
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
Paragon is the best guild in the world, hands down and no matter how hard you try and tell the world that winning every single tier they were not banned for by a matter of days and often more, isn't proof enough, then you have some issues understanding facts.


They were, but their roster has changed significantly, and it looks like it's changed for the worst.

03/14/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Holyavenger
In our 12/12 normal clear last week, we got 0 thunderforged loot. The terrible 25 man on our server killed 1 boss and got 2 thunderforged pieces.


Pretty sure nobody likes the Fun-Dur-Forge idea, and I would dare say, they HATE the implementation of it.
Edited by Azane on 3/14/2013 12:30 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
11860
They were, but their roster has changed significantly, and it looks like it's changed for the worst.


What are you basing this assumption on? The word is the 25 mans cheesed some of the council mechanics with hand of purity.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
What are you basing this assumption on? The word is the 25 mans cheesed some of the council mechanics with hand of purity.


That their roster changed?

Well, there's only 10 in any given raid now, where as they used to use 25 when you were linking their "best in world" clear advantages.

And whats cheesing? is it removing a mechanic, or hand of purity being hand of purity?

I havent looked that closely into the fight yet.

edit

http://www.paragon.fi/news/paragon-will-be-switching-25man-10man-mop

I even found where they said that over half their roster quit, and they wouldn't have the skill to compete on the 25 man level.
During the beta it became obvious that the current roster will not cut it in MoP
Edited by Azane on 3/14/2013 12:47 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Paragon moving to 10 was clearly motivated by a depleted roster. There is literally no other explanation.
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90 Orc Warrior
11860
As far as I know only one player in their 10 man roster is not a long time member of paragon. They took their best 10 and rolled out. I don't get your point about "changed for the worse" they were world first last tier and they caught up pretty quickly once they got past council.
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