Windwalker feels unslottable in ToT heroics

90 Pandaren Monk
11975
03/21/2013 09:55 PMPosted by Chugnoris
Add my 15% damage back and the rogue still beats me by 7k damage. I don't want a rogue nerf, I want a monk buff.


You can't compare a spec (Windwalker) to the what is probably the best spec in the game (Assassination) to justify that you need a buff.

With that logic 22 of the 23 DPS specs in the game would need a buff.

According to what I think is the best data I can see ( http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/all/7/30/default/#0011001100110111110010100000000000 ), yes, we are a bit below the pack - but not that far.

The real story is the outliers way above the pack - (Assassination) rogues, (Unholy) deathknights, (Shadow) priests and (Destruction) warlocks. Those classes all are in more need of a nerf than anyone is in need of a buff. Edit - Upon further consideration, I looked at the 10 man data and it seemed like Shadowpriests were in a good spot there. In light of that I retract my accusation of them being OP.

Windwalkers would only need a 2% buff to bring us into the pack - don't look at the people who are way too high and think about how much we would need to get on their level - they need to be brought down.
Edited by Janxspirit on 3/22/2013 9:24 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
At least Brewmaster is pretty good :P
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
That's a particularly weird raidbots link. Why did you cherry-pick specs? These are better.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/all/7/30/default/
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/all/7/30/default/

Also you can't say that WW needs a "2% buff" from the spec score. It doesn't directly correlate to DPS, it matches rankings across fights. Please read the "what is spec score" link on raidbots to see why.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
03/22/2013 07:57 AMPosted by Slant
That's a particularly weird raidbots link. Why did you cherry-pick specs? These are better.


I left only the best spec of a class, unless the other specs use a different primary attribute. The logic here is that people will respec to whatever DPS spec of their class is the best. Shamans and druids are the exception because they would require different gear so they can't just change like that.

I feel that raidbots does not accurately measure the performance of the inferior mage, warlock, rogue, , hunter, deathknight and warrior specs, so I omit them.

Also you can't say that WW needs a "2% buff" from the spec score. It doesn't directly correlate to DPS, it matches rankings across fights. Please read the "what is spec score" link on raidbots to see why.


Yes, I can say that, and yes I do understand how spec score works.

If you buffed monks by 2%, they would still not be top dps for any one fight. This means that their spec score would rise 2%, because on all fights they are now that much closer to the top dps.

For example say there were only 4 fights and on them WW was 75% of the top dps spec for that fight, 80%, 85% and 90%. The WW spec score would be (75%+80%+85%+90%)/4=82.5%. If you buffed them 2% then they would be (75*1.02%+80*1.02%+85*1.02%+90*1.02%)/4. Clearly you can just factor out the 1.02. Their spec score is now 82.5%*1.02=84.15%.

If on the other hand you buffed assassination rogues by 2%, since they are already top on lots of fights, they would not rise 2%. What would happen is that all the other specs would fall because they are now further behind the top spec. Assassination would rise a bit because it wasn't top on every fight, but it would not rise 2%.
Edited by Janxspirit on 3/22/2013 8:44 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
If you buffed monks by 2%, they would still not be top dps for any one fight. This means that their spec score would rise 2%.

Seriously, don't take this as a burn. That's just not how spec score works, it's relative to the top DPS on each fight not absolute. You would need to go into the DPS charts, add 2% to each one, then recalculate.
Edited by Slant on 3/22/2013 8:43 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
If you buffed monks by 2%, they would still not be top dps for any one fight. This means that their spec score would rise 2%.

Seriously, don't take this as a burn. That's just not how spec score works.


No, it really is, as long as like I said you are not the top dps spec for any encounter before or after the proposed change. I edited my post to include some math to convince you.
Edited by Janxspirit on 3/22/2013 8:42 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
I edited my post too after the fact, and I think we actually agree here. Your own math showed that a 2% buff did not increase spec score by 2%. It's multiplicative not additive.
Edited by Slant on 3/22/2013 8:47 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
I edited my post too after the fact, and I think we actually agree here. Your own math showed that a 2% buff did not increase spec score by 2%. It's multiplicative not additive.


Percentage gains are always multiplicative you silly goose. Why would you ever assume I meant +0.02 rather than *1.02 :(

In other news my random 2% buff number was based on what it would take to bring us up to the a spec score of 83.4 (Where Ret pallies and (edit!) survival Hunters are).
Edited by Janxspirit on 3/22/2013 9:06 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
Why marks hunters? All the hunters are survival these days. Ret is beating WW, but it's definitely not performing well this tier. I would not target Ret-- the spec probably deserves minor buffs.

Eyeballing the spec scores, the "middle of the pack" for 10N looks to be around 85-86, and for 25N around 84-85. But of course once assassination is inevitably nerfed, that will all compress a bit.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
Why marks hunters? All the hunters are survival these days. Ret is beating WW, but it's definitely not performing well this tier. I would not target Ret-- the spec probably deserves minor buffs.

Eyeballing the spec scores, the "middle of the pack" for 10N looks to be around 85-86, and for 25N around 84-85. But of course once assassination is inevitably nerfed, that will all compress a bit.


I meant survival. I just looked at the icon picture and I got it wrong.

edit - I picked a low ball target because I would rather things be underbuffed than overbuffed. It's always best to underestimate things. Especially in light of what Blizzard has been doing to mages lately. It's good to remember that a 2% buff would almost certainly result in more than a 2% buff, because it entices good players to play the spec and it entices people to gear up windwalkers.
Edited by Janxspirit on 3/22/2013 9:19 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
I really don't see targeting middle of the pack as highballing. If a spec is substantially below the middle, it should be buffed.

A 2% buff isn't going to convince anyone of anything. I'm convinced that's why the devs tend to overbuff.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
I agree 2% buffs don't seem very big to most people, which is why I think Blizzard prefers to buff individual talents/spells (Like they did with mages), because it makes a bigger number and appears flashier.

Conversely when they do nerfs it seems like they hit really important passives where the nerf seems smaller than it is.

I bet if they actually wanted to buff monks 2% for example they would do something like raise the DoT damage compnent of blackout kick by +40%. Since it is about 5% of our single target DPS, that would wind up being a 2% gain. People would probably be more impressed by it though ;p.
Edited by Janxspirit on 3/22/2013 9:33 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
Yep, very good point.
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
Already sorta being asked to reroll to my old main (rogue) by my guild even though I still do somewhat comparable damage in our raids and place in top 5 half the time or so. Just be thankful that alts are kinda easy-ish to gear up this patch if you are good at troves of the thunder king scenario and can manage 12-20 coins in one run :P

To be honest I wouldn't really mind at all if the 5.1 monk was just brought back at this point lol, like Gondlem said at least back then we did excellent sustained single target damage to somewhat (very poorly i guess) make up for the lack of utility. But now I just find myself in a rush to gear my rogue in time for heroic magera, because I know my monk wont be doing half of what my rogue will be doing on that fight trivializing the rampages with smoke bombs with the other 2 rogues.
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90 Pandaren Monk
17030
I'm keeping my rogue as geared as possible for when it's needed on Iron Qon. But I really don't see myself doing anything more than switching for a fight or two on progression. Rogues are just way too boring and after 7 years of playing it, WW was very refreshing.
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90 Pandaren Monk
16680
In other news my random 2% buff number was based on what it would take to bring us up to the a spec score of 83.4 (Where Ret pallies and (edit!) survival Hunters are).


I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but giving WW a 2% buff and bringing their damage up to par with ret paladins would still leave them, as the title of the thread says, unslottable in heroic raid comps.

We're working on Dark Animus right now and we have a ret paladin slotted. Is he in because he does x% more damage than a windwalker monk? No, he's in because he has devo aura, which is an amazing CD on that fight. What about on a fight where devo aura isn't that good? Well then a ret paladin brings Hand of Protection/Purity/Sacrifice, all of which are amazing abilities in different situations and justify a raid spot. Purity was so useful this tier that it got nerfed recently, in fact. That's not to say ret is in a great spot, because their damage is kinda weak on the fights so far, but certainly if WW swapped abilities with ret I wouldn't have made this thread.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16230
Gondlem raises excellent points.

There comes an inherent problem when specs are being slotted with X amounts of raid utility and others aren't. It makes the DPS charts have less bearing on the overall selection of a raid composition. Some bearing, but not AS much with fights getting increasingly complex and more potential uses and thus weight in what they can provide to a raid.

If a spec or class that don't have raid utility at least had higher end of the spectrum damage, then you could at least still make a justification for that slot. But when you have some people sitting bottom of the barrel to mediocre on damage potential in conjunction with the lack of raid utility, it's no wonder why the decent progression raid guilds will regularly sit certain specs more than the norm. Rogues were given the damage reduction on Smoke Bomb and then buffed to the moon to combat this.

Meanwhile, Hunters, Windwalkers, and even to an extent Mages are left in limbo. The only saving graces for Hunters and Mages is, being that they're ranged DPS, they can be more easily slotted into a comp. Poor Windwalkers get a triple whammy.

I don't even raid with a Monk and hoping that Windwalkers get much needed attention.
Edited by Bullettime on 3/22/2013 5:39 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
4050
I agree that WW's could use a bit of tweaking atm.

Raid Utility - Personally I feel this is the weakest point of the WW Monk atm. Since we scale so well with gear, we've been tweaked where our entry-level damage isn't as competitive as other classes. Unfortuantely (As Gondlem explained) this puts us at a disadvantage when competing for a melee DPS slot, as most all other melee DPS have a raid utility CD of some sort that trumps any damage that a WW Monk can provide early in the tier.

Suggested Fix :

Glyph of Meditation (Windwalker specific)
Zen Meditation (3 Min Cooldown)
Reduces all damage taken by 80% and redirects 20% of the damage received by all party and raid members within 30 yards. Lasts 8 seconds.


Reasoning :

BM/MW already have a raid cooldown (Avert Harm, Revival) of sorts, so I don't feel that they need any more utility. That's why I believe this should be WW specific. This should help bring us in line with other comparable melee CDs. I personally feel this would be fair as during Zen Meditation the caster is unable to attack, and the damage is redirected to him/her instead of just absorbed.

For reference, here's 2 similiar cooldowns:

Smoke Bomb
Instant 3 min cooldown
Requires Rogue
Requires level 85
Creates a cloud of thick smoke in an 8 yard radius around the Rogue for 5 sec. Enemies are unable to target into or out of the smoke cloud. Allies take 20% less damage while within the cloud.


Devotion Aura
Instant 3 min cooldown
Requires Paladin
Requires level 60
Inspire all party and raid members within 40 yards, granting them immunity to Silence and Interrupt effects and reducing all magic damage taken by 20%. Lasts 6 sec.


SEF - This ability is an obvious DPS increase when looking at raw numbers, but it's a pretty significant loss in single target damage. While other classes can passively cleave or tab-DoT, we're at a bit of a disadvantage.

Suggested Fix :

SEF (1 Min Cooldown)

The Monk splits, summoning 2 elemental spirits to attack nearby targets.

The spirits will attack their targets and mirror your damaging abilities, but deal 35% of the monks damage.

The elemental spirits will expire after 30 seconds, or no additional targets are available.


Reasoning :

This will give us some less-punishing cleave, albeit increasing our damage for 30 seconds, this is on a 1 min cooldown, granting us 35% cleave damage over the 1 min cooldown, in line with the 35% that SEF currently offers.

While these are just suggestions, I do feel that we're not far off from where we need to be, but lack of any significant raid utility (IMO) is a core issue with WWs in general.
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90 Orc Monk
14375
I agree that WW's could use a bit of tweaking atm.

Raid Utility - Personally I feel this is the weakest point of the WW Monk atm. Since we scale so well with gear, we've been tweaked where our entry-level damage isn't as competitive as other classes. Unfortuantely (As Gondlem explained) this puts us at a disadvantage when competing for a melee DPS slot, as most all other melee DPS have a raid utility CD of some sort that trumps any damage that a WW Monk can provide early in the tier.

Suggested Fix :

Glyph of Meditation (Windwalker specific)
Zen Meditation (3 Min Cooldown)
Reduces all damage taken by 80% and redirects 20% of the damage received by all party and raid members within 30 yards. Lasts 8 seconds.


Reasoning :

BM/MW already have a raid cooldown (Avert Harm, Revival) of sorts, so I don't feel that they need any more utility. That's why I believe this should be WW specific. This should help bring us in line with other comparable melee CDs. I personally feel this would be fair as during Zen Meditation the caster is unable to attack, and the damage is redirected to him/her instead of just absorbed.

For reference, here's 2 similiar cooldowns:

Smoke Bomb
Instant 3 min cooldown
Requires Rogue
Requires level 85
Creates a cloud of thick smoke in an 8 yard radius around the Rogue for 5 sec. Enemies are unable to target into or out of the smoke cloud. Allies take 20% less damage while within the cloud.


Devotion Aura
Instant 3 min cooldown
Requires Paladin
Requires level 60
Inspire all party and raid members within 40 yards, granting them immunity to Silence and Interrupt effects and reducing all magic damage taken by 20%. Lasts 6 sec.


SEF - This ability is an obvious DPS increase when looking at raw numbers, but it's a pretty significant loss in single target damage. While other classes can passively cleave or tab-DoT, we're at a bit of a disadvantage.

Suggested Fix :

SEF (1 Min Cooldown)

The Monk splits, summoning 2 elemental spirits to attack nearby targets.

The spirits will attack their targets and mirror your damaging abilities, but deal 35% of the monks damage.

The elemental spirits will expire after 30 seconds, or no additional targets are available.


Reasoning :

This will give us some less-punishing cleave, albeit increasing our damage for 30 seconds, this is on a 1 min cooldown, granting us 35% cleave damage over the 1 min cooldown, in line with the 35% that SEF currently offers.

While these are just suggestions, I do feel that we're not far off from where we need to be, but lack of any significant raid utility (IMO) is a core issue with WWs in general.


I'd rather see a CD in the spirit of Touch of Karma, which is unique to Windwalkers. Make it a raid-wide damage reflection, slap a 5min CD on it or a debuff like Bloodlust to discourage stacking and you have a really great utility that stays with the flavor of the class and is a great anti-burn counter for PvP.

And I totally dig your idea for SEF. I'd rather see adds that do a very small portion of our damage, but leave our damage untouched as well. Right now, while its a damage increase on paper, part of what makes it awkward or undesirable to use in most encounters right now is the loss of damage we take.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4050
Since my suggested Zen Meditation change only reduces damage by 80%, it could be paired with a Touch of Karma to completely negate the damage and help make up for some damage loss while channeling Zen Meditation.

I think it would be nice to sacrifice some of our personal survivability to gain more raid utility, having an 80% (or lower) damage reduction would make sure that we'd have to roll another cooldown to ensure our survival.
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