T15 Prot 4-piece. (Paladin)

90 Human Paladin
12270
I posted this on the Paladin forums, but no one responded.

Does this seem kind of underwhelming to some of you fellow Prots?

It appears all of the tank-based 4-piece bonuses have something to do with your generators/spenders, but ours is based off of a 1-minute defensive cooldown, when we're taking damage, not dealing it.

For instance, Prot Warriors are getting 50% more rage when dealing damage to targets affected by demoralizing shout. For me to be generating additional holy power through my set bonus, I have to be mitigating damage with an active cooldown, and it's based on 20% increments of my health pool. What about with Sacred Shield up? Or using Shield of the Righteous to further mitigate? It seems like the amount of holy power would be very insignificant, except on heroic modes maybe. I don't take hardly any damage outside of big events like 5th/6th Rampage on Megaera and the breaths immediately after (lolnerfed this week), or when Primordius is loaded up, or maybe during Animus when I noobed connecting 2 adds. :S

Overall tonight I took almost 13% less damage than our Brewmaster; but that's because I've been playing Prot for maybe 2 months total and am still getting used to the rotation. I don't know (as in, I don't have 4-piece - but I passed on tier because I figured our group could use more DPS, instead of me having a few more holy power during certain events; so our Warlock got a nice new shiny), but it SEEMS kind of weak. Any Prot Paladins have it and noticed how useful it is yet?

I guess in those "oh-shoot" moments, when you gotta have it up, it might nice to spam a few more WoGs+Shield of the Righteous, but when you're already stacked with Sacred Shield, Barkskin, and a variety of other mitigating factors, I think I'd rather have something that packs a bit more punch offensively.

Thoughts?

Edit: I guess what I'm really driving at is - would having T14 2-piece and T15 2-piece be better overall until you're neck-deep in heroics? I don't have the means to sim it yet, so I'm curious if anyone does, and can, and wants to chime in? :P

Probably won't matter anyway, T14 set drops never dropped for me. Still using 483 shoulders in both specs... FML.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
03/20/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Anton
For instance, Prot Warriors are getting 50% more rage when dealing damage to targets affected by demoralizing shout.
You do realise Demo Shout has changed significantly since Cata and is now our 1 minute, 20% damage reduction cooldown, right?
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Tauren Paladin
17105
I guess in those "oh-shoot" moments, when you gotta have it up, it might nice to spam a few more WoGs+Shield of the Righteous, but when you're already stacked with Sacred Shield, Barkskin, and a variety of other mitigating factors, I think I'd rather have something that packs a bit more punch offensively.


Sacred shield is included with the damage taken as it is an absorb NOT a damage reduction, it might be better to think of it like "For every 20% health equivalent damage you take, including absorb effects, while under Divine protection, you gain 1 holy power." To use simple math if you have 600k health, each time the damage you take reaches a multiple of 120k while under DP you would get 1 holy power. So say SS is up and absorbs 60k, that means you would only take a 60k dent in your health pool.

Not to mention Shield of the righteous is one of our hardest hitting abilities, especially with glyph of the alabaster shield.

With what Waniou said it seems like the bonus, for us and warriors, is increasing our resource generation (warriors use rage, paladins use Holy Power) while our short CD damage reducer is active on us or our targets.

Guardian druids get even more rage while enrage is active, DKs get 15 Runic power when a charge of bone shield is used, and monks get a 10% chance on stagger damage to make their next purifying brew cost no chi. Hmm, only druids seem to get a pure offensive bonus and monks get a pure defensive one.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Not sure how you plot Druids as a "pure offensive bonus".
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
DK bonus looks bleh, but I must say Paladin 2pc looks incredible.
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90 Human Paladin
13310
I think there's probably a reasonable critique of the paladin 4p bonus in that it's worth dramatically more resources on Heroic 25-man encounters than, say, normal 10-man encounters. The percentage of your maximum HP that you take in damage over the duration of a Divine Protection is going to be wildly different in those two environments. (Conversely, the warrior bonus isn't really going to change much.)

That said, though, considering the tuning it's up against, I think it's actually likely to be OVERtuned rather than UNDERtuned.

Paladins generate somewhere between 0.4 and 0.5 Holy Power per second (depending on haste vs. mastery). The 4p warrior bonus lets them generate 50% more resources for the duration of Demoralizing Shout.

During the duration of Divine Protection, if you're a haste stacking paladin you're likely to generate 5 Holy Power. In order for you to generate 50% more resources, you'd need to generate 2.5 additional Holy Power. That means taking roughly 50% of your HP in damage - over the course of 10 seconds.

I mean, I don't know about you guys, but my experience on 25-mans indicates that I probably take more than that routinely, and WAY more than that if I'm specifically using Divine Protection to counter burst (like Frozen Assault, the final Horridon phase, Tortos bats, etc). Maybe in the 10-man environment it's different, of course.

Basically: the paladin bonus kind of owns, in my opinion, and is a welcome addition to my repertoire. It's gonna be like a mini-Holy Avenger.
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90 Human Paladin
12270
03/20/2013 01:41 PMPosted by Waniou
For instance, Prot Warriors are getting 50% more rage when dealing damage to targets affected by demoralizing shout.
You do realise Demo Shout has changed significantly since Cata and is now our 1 minute, 20% damage reduction cooldown, right?
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859


TBH no, I didn't know that; I've been Ret forever and recently got into tanking - my apologies for not doing more research on that.

03/20/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Ujarak
I guess in those "oh-shoot" moments, when you gotta have it up, it might nice to spam a few more WoGs+Shield of the Righteous, but when you're already stacked with Sacred Shield, Barkskin, and a variety of other mitigating factors, I think I'd rather have something that packs a bit more punch offensively.


Sacred shield is included with the damage taken as it is an absorb NOT a damage reduction, it might be better to think of it like "For every 20% health equivalent damage you take, including absorb effects, while under Divine protection, you gain 1 holy power." To use simple math if you have 600k health, each time the damage you take reaches a multiple of 120k while under DP you would get 1 holy power. So say SS is up and absorbs 60k, that means you would only take a 60k dent in your health pool.

Not to mention Shield of the righteous is one of our hardest hitting abilities, especially with glyph of the alabaster shield.

With what Waniou said it seems like the bonus, for us and warriors, is increasing our resource generation (warriors use rage, paladins use Holy Power) while our short CD damage reducer is active on us or our targets.

Guardian druids get even more rage while enrage is active, DKs get 15 Runic power when a charge of bone shield is used, and monks get a 10% chance on stagger damage to make their next purifying brew cost no chi. Hmm, only druids seem to get a pure offensive bonus and monks get a pure defensive one.


That makes sense a bit more; I wasn't sure how everything was calculated - thus my inquiry to anyone using it already. And yeah, the 2-piece is amazing, I understand. I loved using it on Durumu the other night solo-tanking. I was getting Shield of the Righteous crits in the 1.1 million range; unfortunately, we wiped and decided it might be better to duo-tank in a 10m environment.

DK bonus looks bleh, but I must say Paladin 2pc looks incredible.


Yeah it is.

I think there's probably a reasonable critique of the paladin 4p bonus in that it's worth dramatically more resources on Heroic 25-man encounters than, say, normal 10-man encounters. The percentage of your maximum HP that you take in damage over the duration of a Divine Protection is going to be wildly different in those two environments. (Conversely, the warrior bonus isn't really going to change much.)

That said, though, considering the tuning it's up against, I think it's actually likely to be OVERtuned rather than UNDERtuned.

Paladins generate somewhere between 0.4 and 0.5 Holy Power per second (depending on haste vs. mastery). The 4p warrior bonus lets them generate 50% more resources for the duration of Demoralizing Shout.

During the duration of Divine Protection, if you're a haste stacking paladin you're likely to generate 5 Holy Power. In order for you to generate 50% more resources, you'd need to generate 2.5 additional Holy Power. That means taking roughly 50% of your HP in damage - over the course of 10 seconds.

I mean, I don't know about you guys, but my experience on 25-mans indicates that I probably take more than that routinely, and WAY more than that if I'm specifically using Divine Protection to counter burst (like Frozen Assault, the final Horridon phase, Tortos bats, etc). Maybe in the 10-man environment it's different, of course.

Basically: the paladin bonus kind of owns, in my opinion, and is a welcome addition to my repertoire. It's gonna be like a mini-Holy Avenger.


That's kind of where I was going with that; I use a Haste build, and DP, so I could see it being very solid - it just seemed kind of lackluster when reading it.

And again, I was more directing this towards Paladins that had it already and could verify the issue, but, I appreciate *ALL* of the responses in the thread.

I'm really enjoying tanking, and want to continue to progress my guild, regardless of positive or negative aspects in-game and on the forums.

Thanks guys.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
DK bonus looks bleh, but I must say Paladin 2pc looks incredible.


The value of the 2 piece paladin bonus is still a matter of some debate, though its certainly not bad. Its possible that its worth using WoG to maintain constantly, sacrificing about half our ShoRs to do it. Worth it for Survivability, that is. It'd dent our dps.
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ShoR is likely still better since it's guaranteed damage reduction. What the set bonus does is make it less of a mitigation loss to use WoG.

The bonus is particularly useful for me since I tend to use my WoG on others anyway. (I do raid 10s.)
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
TBH no, I didn't know that; I've been Ret forever and recently got into tanking - my apologies for not doing more research on that.
Yeah.

Warrior 4pc will straight up be skipped. Even 2pc will be dropped with Ra-Den loot.

That's how much Prot Warrior tier bonuses are worth. So here's my sympathy for a 4pc that scales very well into heroic content and a 2pc that's, well, not garbage at least.
Its possible that its worth using WoG to maintain constantly, sacrificing about half our ShoRs to do it. Worth it for Survivability, that is. It'd dent our dps.
Theck's already mathed that it's not. Worth it, that is, for survivability.

Optimal usage of WoG for 2pc is pretty much only when you would have used WoG anyway (low hp, high Bastion stacks, low chance of overheal).
Edited by Kangamooster on 3/22/2013 8:24 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
SY
8080
The value of the 2 piece paladin bonus is still a matter of some debate, though its certainly not bad. Its possible that its worth using WoG to maintain constantly, sacrificing about half our ShoRs to do it. Worth it for Survivability, that is. It'd dent our dps.


Even if you think that the extant evidence implies that it is "worth it" to maintain the 2p buff--and I think that that is not an easy belief to sustain, especially since I would argue that some of the"soft" factors that are harder to incorporate into a sim weigh against it--what is not in dispute is that, even IF it is worth using, it provides a very, very small benefit compared to the standard sotr strategy. Thus, EVEN IF IT IS WORTH USING, it is still a very weak bonus, since it provides at best a tiny benefit over not having it.
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Thus, EVEN IF IT IS WORTH USING, it is still a very weak bonus, since it provides at best a tiny benefit over not having it.


Er, no. You're missing the point.

The 2pc bonus is not intended to replace ShoR with WoG. The bonus is intended to make WoG less of a defensive tradeoff.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
To put it another way, it's in the same boat as the Druid one. The Druid one basically means that when you FR (which you often do, but you rarely spam it all that fast), it's magically better. The WoG one won't make the heal better, but it will mean that your tradeoff in healing reactively is less.

Assuming you're not fighting a Lei Shi, of course.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/22/2013 9:46 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
SY
8080
Er, no. You're missing the point.

The 2pc bonus is not intended to replace ShoR with WoG. The bonus is intended to make WoG less of a defensive tradeoff.


No, I am not missing the point; please read more carefully. I agree that that is most likely the best way of using the bonus. I was arguing that even if you disagree with this, as Wrathblood does, and think that it is optimal to maintain the buff, it is still a weak bonus, since the marginal benefit of maintaining it is at best very small (indeed, in my opinion probably negative.)
Edited by Weebeyy on 3/22/2013 10:23 AM PDT
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No, I am not missing the point; please read more carefully. I agree that that is most likely the best way of using the bonus. I was arguing that even if you disagree with this, as Wrathblood does, and think that it is optimal to maintain the buff, it is still a weak bonus, since the marginal benefit of maintaining it is at best very small (indeed, in my opinion probably negative.)


I got lost in your em-dashes, sorry. I should know better since I write exactly the same way~
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
Er, no. You're missing the point.

The 2pc bonus is not intended to replace ShoR with WoG. The bonus is intended to make WoG less of a defensive tradeoff.


No, I am not missing the point; please read more carefully. I agree that that is most likely the best way of using the bonus. I was arguing that even if you disagree with this, as Wrathblood does, and think that it is optimal to maintain the buff, it is still a weak bonus, since the marginal benefit of maintaining it is at best very small (indeed, in my opinion probably negative.)


Well, strong vs weak is kinda in the eye of the beholder. Our t14 2 piece bonus was a minute reduction in our CD on AD, making it a 2 min CD instead of 3 min. Basically, one extra use of AD per boss fight.

On a fight lacking well telegraphed big spikes on a long-ish duration, its pretty weak. Roughly speaking it worked out like a 0.8% reduction in a damage taken.

But on a fight that did, the extra period during which you could bounce back up from a killing blow could be game-changing.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
Yeah...

As it turns out, turns out Mastery might actually be pretty bad for us after all (unless you have Sha-like fight mechanics to make it almost required).
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