T15 Prot 4-piece. (Paladin)

Mastery reduces more overall damage while ShoR is up, but it leaves larger gaps in coverage as compared to haste. Mechanics like Dread Thrash (think: Impale) favor larger DR on demand.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
To a point. Mechanics that once you have the large DR are already trivial do not. Dread Thrash hits hard, but even without Mastery stacking, the combination of ShoR and cooldowns meant that Mastery stacking wasn't really all that good anyway.

I wouldn't forsee ANYONE actually stacking Mastery for Snapping Bite and so on either. And of course, Ra'den, the guy shrouded in Mystery supposedly only cares that you have the buff up, not how strong it is.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/22/2013 9:09 PM PDT
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Theck's modeling doesn't take into account pooling HP and using ShoR on abilities you know are coming. He openly admits that Monte Carlo-style brute force modeling is only so useful.
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
I would disagree with it being bad, Mastery has the same priority as before. Literally nothing has changed this tier, we just don't have a Dread Thrash mechanic (not a huge deal).

Haste is just more valuable in general to increase your ability to reduce more damage spikes. Lots of short-cooldown high physical damage boss abilities this tier also, e.g. Talon Rake or Snapping Bite or whatever.
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Only one piece is double avoidance, the rest all have one accuracy stat. It's very well itemized all around (with a ton of delicious sockets), and you can just forge the avoidance into haste or mastery if you choose. I don't think we'll ever see haste on plate tank tier gear this expansion.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
14270
DK bonus looks bleh, but I must say Paladin 2pc looks incredible.


Pretty much, I probably won't build my 4 set until every vanq user in my group has their main set and offspec 4 set, it's just very average and not worth it due to the mastery lost by taking 2 tier items with no mastery on them.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
SY
8080
Well, that much is obvious, and is unchanged. The way it was phrased led me to believe that either something had changed, or there was some dramatic new revelation in Theck's modeling.


There was. Theck's models had not considered Sacred Shield before; including it significantly boosted the value of haste compared to mastery, to the point where it seems pretty clearly better in the sort of combat situation being considered. He still isn't including Seal of Insight, as it is a bit harder to model given overhealing, but as a result it is likely that the benefits of haste are still being understated.

In retrospect, it should have been obvious that something like this was at least possible, since Sacred Shield is a huge amount of healing, and we all already knew that the tick rate scaled with haste.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Haste is just more valuable in general to increase your ability to reduce more damage spikes. Lots of short-cooldown high physical damage boss abilities this tier also, e.g. Talon Rake or Snapping Bite or whatever.


Also, dat damage.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Having to reforge into the best stat still leaves a lot of less desirable or possibly even unnecessary stats (Dodge, excessive Hit/Expertise) on our gear.


No, it means you won't be reforging/gemming into Expertise, which is a different thing altogether.

At current gear levels, hitting such a point is not a thing. Even at the point where it might come into play (T16), there'd be no Haste loss because the first pieces you could reforge would be the Haste/Expertise pieces that exist anyway. We might (at worst case) hit it deep into T16 when inflated ilvl's push several specs to the point where stats straight up break, but even that's unlikely; it would require them to not overcompensate tank damage burst when we hit that point.

much less desirable than Haste or Mastery


"Much less"?
Clearly you have some non-arbitrary value to compare between the two. Because the actual non-arbitrary values aren't wildly different.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/24/2013 12:58 PM PDT
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
03/24/2013 05:38 AMPosted by Feanorion
It would just be nice to have pieces with our best stat on them.
That would the case for every spec...

unfortunately dodge is not desirable to every tanking spec this expansion, and parry not much better.

There ARE plenty of haste/hit or exp, or haste/mastery pieces this tier. So I don't really think it's a problem :/
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10750
03/24/2013 02:48 PMPosted by Kangamooster
There ARE plenty of haste/hit or exp, or haste/mastery pieces this tier.


Just no haste on prot pally tier. Heck, we can't even get any haste stuff using the extra roll.

EDIT: Blizz made us this way, it'd be nice if they at least let us gear properly.
Edited by Laryn on 3/25/2013 3:26 PM PDT
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
Again, I miss the problem. Not everyone wants to gear for haste, the developers (by their own admission) didn't expect that haste would become such a powerful stat for Prot Pally, and they already took steps to tone it down. The tier bonuses are powerful enough that you will take them regardless, at least in progression that matters (heroics, later normal fights) - and if you want you have the choice to wear offsets.

Other tank tier sets are horribly itemized also. The Warrior set is so horribly itemized we're wearing ONE PIECE OF IT in full BiS. So again, here is my sympathy. Whoop, there is none.
Edited by Kangamooster on 3/25/2013 3:28 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
Again, I miss the problem. Not everyone wants to gear for haste, the developers (by their own admission) didn't expect that haste would become such a powerful stat for Prot Pally, and they already took steps to tone it down. The tier bonuses are powerful enough that you will take them regardless, at least in progression that matters (heroics, later normal fights) - and if you want you have the choice to wear offsets.

Other tank tier sets are horribly itemized also. The Warrior set is so horribly itemized we're wearing ONE PIECE OF IT in full BiS. So again, here is my sympathy. Whoop, there is none.


It is? Don't Prot warriors basically go: hit (to cap) > exp (to cap) > Mastery > Parry > Dodge?

The Prot Warrior tier goes: Exp/Mastery, Dodge/Parry, Parry/Hit, Dodge/Exp, Hit/Mastery. Which doesn't sound too terrible to me. Is it that you just end up with too much Hit or Exp using them all? I mean, sure, I can see how the Avoidance heavy ones are probably crap, but I'm unclear how the Exp/Mastery and Hit/Mastery pieces have bad stats on them.
Edited by Wrathblood on 3/25/2013 9:01 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10750
03/25/2013 03:27 PMPosted by Kangamooster
Not everyone wants to gear for haste, the developers (by their own admission) didn't expect that haste would become such a powerful stat for Prot Pally, and they already took steps to tone it down.


The issue we haste-a-dins have isn't that we expect all prot pally gear to have haste. We know not everyone wants the control/haste stat priority, and that's fine. The issue is that those of us who ARE trying to gear for haste can't even win any items with haste using mogu runes of fate in normal/heroic tot unless we're in ret spec, and no haste items at all in lfr as prot. If haste helps us, why can't we at least get a CHANCE to get some?

Further, I suppose to get back to the topic, the t15 prot 4-piece bonus isn't worth sacrificing off-tier items if you're gearing for haste. Which only makes the first issue that much worse to deal with. The ret tier doesn't offer us much, either; only the chestpiece has decent stats for prot (assuming you choose helm & shoulders to get prot 2-piece bonus), and the ret 2-piece isn't even usable. Not really the point, of course, but still.
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90 Human Paladin
13320
The issue is that those of us who ARE trying to gear for haste can't even win any items with haste using mogu runes of fate in normal/heroic tot unless we're in ret spec


You can swap to Ret after the fight's over and then roll your Mogu rune, and it'll give you a chance at the ret item list. On top of that, in 5.2 they changed the roll timer to 3 minutes (instead of 30s) so you have plenty of time to get rezzed even if you died during the fight.

03/25/2013 09:35 PMPosted by Laryn
Further, I suppose to get back to the topic, the t15 prot 4-piece bonus isn't worth sacrificing off-tier items if you're gearing for haste.


I'm not sure this is true at all. Do you have any math backing this up? The primary purpose of haste is to generate more Holy Power. Guess what the t15 prot 4-piece bonus does? Generates more Holy Power. It's entirely possible that it's worth more HP than haste, especially once you add Unbreakable Spirit into the equation. Certainly it's more "on demand" than haste is.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10750
You can swap to Ret after the fight's over and then roll your Mogu rune


You know, I asked around and everyone said I couldn't >_>;; Thanks, I'll try that next time. Still doesn't help for lfr (aside from rune rolls), though I guess I won't mind running as ret for the next few weeks till I don't need anything from there.

As for your other point, I didn't take into account Unbreakable Spirit (haven't used it for any fights), but you make a good point. I still feel like the 4-set bonus is a bit lackluster compared to t14, but I guess I'll wait to see what Theck does w/ the numbers. Last I checked the 20% hp per holy power is calculated after mitigation, which seems strange given that it only works when you pop a defensive CD. Add to that the fact that better gear (and skill, to some degree) will give you less HP from the bonus, I dunno.. Granted, better gear means harder encounters, which means more damage taken, but still. Thanks for pointing those details out, though!
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
You know, I asked around and everyone said I couldn't >_>;; Thanks, I'll try that next time. Still doesn't help for lfr (aside from rune rolls), though I guess I won't mind running as ret for the next few weeks till I don't need anything from there.


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