T15 Prot 4-piece. (Paladin)

26 Undead Warrior
0
Again, I miss the problem. Not everyone wants to gear for haste, the developers (by their own admission) didn't expect that haste would become such a powerful stat for Prot Pally, and they already took steps to tone it down. The tier bonuses are powerful enough that you will take them regardless, at least in progression that matters (heroics, later normal fights) - and if you want you have the choice to wear offsets.

Other tank tier sets are horribly itemized also. The Warrior set is so horribly itemized we're wearing ONE PIECE OF IT in full BiS. So again, here is my sympathy. Whoop, there is none.


It is? Don't Prot warriors basically go: hit (to cap) > exp (to cap) > Mastery > Parry > Dodge?

The Prot Warrior tier goes: Exp/Mastery, Dodge/Parry, Parry/Hit, Dodge/Exp, Hit/Mastery. Which doesn't sound too terrible to me. Is it that you just end up with too much Hit or Exp using them all? I mean, sure, I can see how the Avoidance heavy ones are probably crap, but I'm unclear how the Exp/Mastery and Hit/Mastery pieces have bad stats on them.


It's more that (at least by my cursory glancing of stuff on Atlasloot) that there are better itemized pieces with MORE of stuff on them in those slots than the actual tier pieces themselves.

Far as I'm aware, the shoulders are better itemized than most other drops we'd be getting, so they stay on.

The crown off Lei Shen gives our tier headpiece a decent run for its money, and has a strength socket as opposed to a parry one (for what it's worth), but our tier one has 1104 mastery versus Lei Shen's 1044.

Chestpiece? Jin'rohk's DPS/Tank hybrid one. Three sockets is pretty big, but our set chest is Parry/Dodge and awfully itemized. Also has our worst socket bonus.

Legs? Lei Shen again; 3 sockets, Mastery/Dodge instead of Hit/Parry. And one extra socket to boot.

Gloves...almost entirely seem like a wash. We're either getting Parry/Exp or Dodge/Parry on offset items, and tier has Exp/Dodge on them. One pair (off Durumu) has Parry/Dodge, as well as two sockets on it with a strength bonus.

Basically what Kanga's saying (and I agree with) is that our set bonuses (as Prot warriors) are so very "meh" that once we have better items drop, breaking those bonuses won't really be that painful for us to do in the face of better said better itemized drops. A 10% chance to proc Victory Rush on Shield Slam and Revenge, and 50% more rage generation for ten seconds out of every minute (as long as I have an enemy to ping with Demo Shout) aren't very strong bonuses for us, so once we have better items they're honestly not worth keeping.
Edited by Lowmaine on 3/26/2013 2:22 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
Well, sure, I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like 2-3 of the tier pieces are BiS or close. The shoulders are great and the helm and gloves are at least close. Against that, the chest is bad and the legs are perhaps underwhelming. I get that your tier bonuses are underwhelming, but is the 2 piece *really* less valuable than optimizing a socket bonus on a single piece of gear?

The issue paladins have, is that haste is, broadly speaking, our best tanking stat. Sure, there are specific situations where you might prefer another stat (heroic Sha and Mastery, a big AoE fight and Avoidance) or you might have a personal preference for another stat, but generally speaking Haste is the best stat. Yet for two tiers in a row we've had none on our tier set and have had to play games with LFR (thanks for that quote, Slash, I hadn't seen that) and whatnot to even get any at all.

I'm not whining, mind you, I actually find it kind of entertaining figuring out how to game the system (spent much of last tier trying to figure out a reliable way in LFR to get out of combat before a fight ended so I could quickly change spec to Ret for the loot roll). However, you have to be pretty obtuse to not even grasp why Prot Paladins could be annoyed by this.

Kanga is giving the impression of just wanting warriors to get top dog status on the moral hierarchy of itemization whining.

Edit - Turning the situation around, would Warriors really be happier with tier gear loaded with Avoidance but decent set bonuses? Is that really a better situation or not?
Edited by Wrathblood on 3/26/2013 6:10 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Again: zero Haste, and not even much Mastery. We have about as much Dodge (which is very weak for plate tanks) and more Parry (better than Dodge, but still less desired than Mastery, and much less desired than Haste) than Mastery.


You know that adding up the numbers of all 5 pieces, including the piece that you would never use, is the worst way to actually describe itemisation on a tier set, right?

Don't wear the chest and you magically just "happen" to have twice the Mastery as Dodge and Parry, just because your comparison point is horribad.
Reforge/gem and you'd have almost 3-4x as much Mastery and as much Haste as you do Mastery.

That clearly sounds like an AWESOME tier set now. Just because we actually have context that isn't ignorant.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/26/2013 1:47 PM PDT
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26 Undead Warrior
0
Well, sure, I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like 2-3 of the tier pieces are BiS or close. The shoulders are great and the helm and gloves are at least close. Against that, the chest is bad and the legs are perhaps underwhelming. I get that your tier bonuses are underwhelming, but is the 2 piece *really* less valuable than optimizing a socket bonus on a single piece of gear?


2pc T15 is, in fact, that underwhelming. A 10% chance on two abilities to proc Victory Rush (or if you specced into Impending Victory for some dumb reason, activates it like you just scored a killing blow) is that underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, I can readily think of situations where Victory Rush somehow saved my bacon on progression, but I can do that because there are so few situations where that happens that I remember them easily.

The T15 bonus doesn't make it more potent or a potential useful ability, it just activates it. Our 4 piece is even lamer, so in the face of things that are better itemized (and have the potential to be Thunderforged) why would you hold onto them? That at very least necessitates not even gearing for our 4piece at best, and not gearing for even our 2piece at absolute worst.

That's at least the argument as I'm understanding it so far.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15740
hrm

2 sockets is nice but why do these durumu gloves have a str bonus :|

I'll still probably go helm/shoulders though.

Or maybe shoulders and whatever doesn't need to go a DPS first
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
03/26/2013 02:17 PMPosted by Lowmaine
Well, sure, I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like 2-3 of the tier pieces are BiS or close. The shoulders are great and the helm and gloves are at least close. Against that, the chest is bad and the legs are perhaps underwhelming. I get that your tier bonuses are underwhelming, but is the 2 piece *really* less valuable than optimizing a socket bonus on a single piece of gear?


2pc T15 is, in fact, that underwhelming. A 10% chance on two abilities to proc Victory Rush (or if you specced into Impending Victory for some dumb reason, activates it like you just scored a killing blow) is that underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, I can readily think of situations where Victory Rush somehow saved my bacon on progression, but I can do that because there are so few situations where that happens that I remember them easily.

The T15 bonus doesn't make it more potent or a potential useful ability, it just activates it. Our 4 piece is even lamer, so in the face of things that are better itemized (and have the potential to be Thunderforged) why would you hold onto them? That at very least necessitates not even gearing for our 4piece at best, and not gearing for even our 2piece at absolute worst.

That's at least the argument as I'm understanding it so far.


Hmm. I'm not super on top of Warrior mechanics, having not really played my Warrior since early Cata and he's still languishing at 83. But doesn't Victory Rush heal you for 20% of your max health? And its proced by Shield Slam and Revenge, abilities which, I believe, Prot Warriors use pretty often. And, assuming it works like Victory Rush (just looked it up), the proc hangs out for up to 20 seconds waiting for you to use it.

Um, how is this not amazing? Assuming 600k health (which is shooting low), that's a free 120k heal. 120k is very roughly how much my WoGs hit for. Is there an ICD on this? How often do you Shield Slam and Revenge?

Someone needs to explain to me how this is less valuable than an improved socket bonus.
Edited by Wrathblood on 3/26/2013 6:23 PM PDT
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typical warrior victim syndrome am i rite
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
Well, I certainly don't know Warrior mechanics well enough to have much confidence in my point of view. It doesn't look bad to me, but I'm certainly willing to believe that there's a reason I'm not seeing that makes it terrible.
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26 Undead Warrior
0
03/26/2013 06:21 PMPosted by Wrathblood


2pc T15 is, in fact, that underwhelming. A 10% chance on two abilities to proc Victory Rush (or if you specced into Impending Victory for some dumb reason, activates it like you just scored a killing blow) is that underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, I can readily think of situations where Victory Rush somehow saved my bacon on progression, but I can do that because there are so few situations where that happens that I remember them easily.

The T15 bonus doesn't make it more potent or a potential useful ability, it just activates it. Our 4 piece is even lamer, so in the face of things that are better itemized (and have the potential to be Thunderforged) why would you hold onto them? That at very least necessitates not even gearing for our 4piece at best, and not gearing for even our 2piece at absolute worst.

That's at least the argument as I'm understanding it so far.


Hmm. I'm not super on top of Warrior mechanics, having not really played my Warrior since early Cata and he's still languishing at 83. But doesn't Victory Rush heal you for 20% of your max health? And its proced by Shield Slam and Revenge, abilities which, I believe, Prot Warriors use pretty often. And, assuming it works like Victory Rush (just looked it up), the proc hangs out for up to 20 seconds waiting for you to use it.

Um, how is this not amazing? Assuming 600k health (which is shooting low), that's a free 120k heal. 120k is very roughly how much my WoGs hit for. Is there an ICD on this? How often do you Shield Slam and Revenge?

Someone needs to explain to me how this is less valuable than an improved socket bonus.


I'd really rather not get into the specifics in this thread (because I don't wanna be that guy that hijacks a thread into some other strange territory it doesn't really need to go into), but the long and the short of it basically ties into why Impending Victory is a crap talent to begin with (at least compared to the clear victor on raid content, Enraged Regeneration), and why Victory Rush is a silly ability. Yes, we're using those abilities (Shield Slam and Revenge) frequently, but the chance not only isn't very high to begin with, it's on an ability that I'll see light up and go "Eh, I guess I'll use this if I get unlucky?." or "Welp, good thing I totally had the stars align and this happened before Big Boss does his OMGWTFBBQDAMAGE ability that will knock me low even with cooldowns..."

But even without this, we're still fine. A 10% chance on one ability off of two abilities isn't going to make or break us as tanks. It's an extra incentive, at the expense of "meh" itemized gear in comparison to the options available.

Basically, it's just unnecessary. It's nice fluff, sure, but it's still fluff. But there are actual compelling options that I can take in lieu of the fluff, so I'll probably take those.

That being said though, I honestly don't mind this whole thing; the other pieces make up the difference imo. Not every set bonus can be "ZOMG AMAZING" comparatively to T14's 2pc (which I'll be keeping as long as possible until I can't honestly reason away the set bonus in favor of 522's being that much better than what I've got).

typical warrior victim syndrome am i rite


Every time I try to armory you I get an error and it makes me sad :(

WHERE IS YOUR PALADIN MNEM I WANNA SEE ITTTTT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
And its proced by Shield Slam and Revenge, abilities which, I believe, Prot Warriors use pretty often


It's a 10% chance on use of those abilities. That's hilariously rare, and because it doesn't scale with AP, it's nowhere near as good as WoG/FR/Barrier anyway. It's like about as useful as a 20 Rage proc every 30-40 seconds ish, on a single target, possibly less since it's a heal not an absorb.

I don't know how your WoG might be healing for only 120k ish btw, unless you're not tanking anything that hits remotely hard. That's roughly how much it heals for on Lei Shen when Psiven heals other people while not tanking.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/26/2013 9:50 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
03/26/2013 09:47 PMPosted by Slashlove
And its proced by Shield Slam and Revenge, abilities which, I believe, Prot Warriors use pretty often


It's a 10% chance on use of those abilities. That's hilariously rare, and because it doesn't scale with AP, it's nowhere near as good as WoG/FR/Barrier anyway. It's like about as useful as a 20 Rage proc every 30-40 seconds ish, on a single target, possibly less since it's a heal not an absorb.

I don't know how your WoG might be healing for only 120k ish btw, unless you're not tanking anything that hits remotely hard. That's roughly how much it heals for on Lei Shen when Psiven heals other people while not tanking.


Mm, you're right about WoG, I picked a fight at random and got a bad example. A more representative sample gave an average modestly over 200k and crits around 300k.

As for the 2 piece itself, I get that it only procs 10% of the time nor scales with AP, but it still seems pretty useful. My understanding is that how it works is the 2 piece gives every Shield Slam or Revenge a 10% chance to flag you as having killed something worth XP or Honor. The flag then lasts for 20 seconds during which time you can use VR (I'm assuming no one takes IV for raiding).

Warriors are the one class I haven't tanked with so far this expansion and there aren't a lot of them on my server for whatever reason, but browsing through WoL it looks like Warriors use one or the other of those abilities every ~5 seconds. At a 10% chance, lets say you get a proc once/minute. That's a free healthstone useable every minute. No, you can't use it constantly, but its hardly hilariously rare. It doesn't scale with AP, but 20% of Max health is still a respectable heal and you can sit on it if you know burst is coming. If you get a proc while OTing, you can probably just sit on it until its your turn to tank the boss, giving you another survival resource on top of your presumably maxed out Rage.

No, its not spammable, but that would make it OP for a 2 piece bonus. Its impact on HPS isn't all that impressive especially once you count some Overheal% against it. But that hardly matters, spikes are the tank killers, and this is a handy anti-spike tool.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
browsing through WoL it looks like Warriors use one or the other of those abilities every ~5 seconds. At a 10% chance, lets say you get a proc once/minute. That's a free healthstone useable every minute. No, you can't use it constantly, but its hardly hilariously rare.


Except Healthstones are so weak people go entire raids forgetting they even exist, VR is iirc still on the gcd (which means you're trading off on abilities that work the Rage system), and a proc/minute IS hilariously rare to the point that it's almost something you'd be surprised to see (by contrast, a Druid probably gets the equivalent from their set bonus every 10 seconds, and a DK gets a 30 sec cooldown reduced to 20 and a Rune cost removed.

AS a spike prevention, it's weak and bad. Having better stats on three other slots gives less random survivability power that, because of the nature of avoidance and Mastery, would be more effective than a random 20% heal anyway.

If you get a proc while OTing, you can probably just sit on it until its your turn to tank the boss, giving you another survival resource on top of your presumably maxed out Rage.


And it's just as likely that you can't sit on it, or that you'll get it while you're switching off. Or that you never get it, since while not tanking, you won't get as many Revenge uses from procs.

It doesn't scale with AP, but 20% of Max health is still a respectable heal and you can sit on it if you know burst is coming.


You're ALREADY sitting on it if you have IV or ER (and you're not really usign those on cd). In addition, for a spike/burst you're already sitting on Barrier which is much stronger and has much more effect.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/27/2013 3:15 PM PDT
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
I've used the 2pc extensively this Tuesday (and will keep using it as it's replaced my crappy T14 legs), and here's my revised thoughts after using it.

I still think it's lackluster, but like Wrathblood said it's a very handy anti-spike tool... but only when we don't have the rage for Block/Barrier, are going to take a load of damage from unblockable and blockable damage, or mistimed our AM (i.e. played wrong). The whole point of Warrior mitigation is to preemptively mitigate, not to heal up afterwards; this adds a nice dynamic OF healing up afterwards, which is helpful for things like Horridon's Triple Puncture.

However, here's the problem: Devastate, Revenge, Battle/Commanding Shout, and Shield Slam all contribute to rage gen (indirectly in Devastate's case, but at a very high chance - 30%). Every other button, including VR, takes away from our mitigation - and Shield Block/Barrier make a HUGE difference in damage smoothing. Almost every time I've used the VR proc it's been on the last global before a natural Shield Slam refresh which is... very seldom; the other times it's been when I've been 10% and I've had to throw up a <60 rage barrier just to stay alive, basically when I've messed up badly.

Anyways, I digress. It's fine that you think I'm just lobbying that Warriors should be able to cry the hardest, but it's really just absurd to claim that Pally tier pieces are soo awful because they don't have your best stat. Mastery and avoidance aren't nearly as bad as they're made out to be, at ALL.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
If this is addressed to me, I never said Mastery or Avoidance was bad. I said it would be nice to have more Mastery, and that Parry, and to a far greater degree, Dodge, are not bad but less desired than either Haste or Mastery.


-->

You know that adding up the numbers of all 5 pieces, including the piece that you would never use, is the worst way to actually describe itemisation on a tier set, right?

Don't wear the chest and you magically just "happen" to have twice the Mastery as Dodge and Parry, just because your comparison point is horribad.
Reforge/gem and you'd have almost 3-4x as much Mastery and as much Haste as you do Mastery.

That clearly sounds like an AWESOME tier set now. Just because we actually have context that isn't ignorant.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
Kanga, oh I was just feeling punchy and giving you crap. As for prot pally gearing, Theck just lives to mess up my gearing rules, as it now looks like maybe the best gearing choice is a mix of Haste and Mastery (though it'll probably cost you 5-10% of your dps vs a full Control-Haste build, depending on the exact distribution) and Avoidance is actually a more or less competitive gearing strategy for survivability (its probably 90-95% as good, though it seriously guts your dps. -40% vs Control-Haste) and its actually your best way to go for AoE situations.

TL;DR - Haste is a good stat, and our best tanking stat, but the gap between it and the other stats isn't really very big. The gap is mostly in tank dps. The only caveat is that if you go Avoidance, you're really better off going whole-hog. You even want to skip Hit and Exp.

Slash,

Wait, is this all really just an elaborate subtle dig at Psiven? I checked out your last few WoL reports. He doesn't like Healthstones, does he?

In terms of the actual substance, sure, some folks forget they have healthstones. Some tanks also gear Spirit, and some dps don't use pots. That doesn't make it a good idea. Certainly, some of the time you won't get to use a particular proc, but that hardly makes it worthless just like an extra 100 Mastery isn't worthless to a Prot Warrior just because it didn't happen to be responsible for a crit block on a swing or even over the course of a fight.

As for spike prevention, I find it bizarre that you'd consider a few extra hundred points of, say, Mastery instead of Dodge, less random than a heal you can potentially sit on for a period of time. Sure, the Mastery is less random than the Dodge, but we're still talking a fairly low probability of those points changing the outcome. Again, doesn't make them worthless, but calling them less random than a VR proc is just... I don't even see how you'd see it that way, to be honest.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Wait, is this all really just an elaborate subtle dig at Psiven? I checked out your last few WoL reports. He doesn't like Healthstones, does he?


Huh?

>I< basically plan Healthstones and randomly forget they exist too. Most tanks don't pay much attention to them, partially because Locks and stuff, but mostly because they're not that great.
Then there's attempts when I want to use them and forget that they're used up.

In terms of the actual substance, sure, some folks forget they have healthstones. Some tanks also gear Spirit, and some dps don't use pots. That doesn't make it a good idea.


Yeah .... those are bad comparison.

Certainly, some of the time you won't get to use a particular proc, but that hardly makes it worthless just like an extra 100 Mastery isn't worthless to a Prot Warrior


I don't think anyone's hyperbolised that hard so much as pointed out that the 2pc isn't very good and that the alternative offset pieces are strong enough to basically make it a nonfactor.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/27/2013 9:56 PM PDT
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
I macroed Healthstones to ER about halfway through T14. Haven't forgotten them since!
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90 Night Elf Warrior
0
Your 4set is lackluster, boo hoo. The only semi-decent warrior tier set bonus for prot this expansion is the t15 2-set, and even that is highly reactive and not very useful compared to the stats lost for it.
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